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Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

A forum for discussion of regional topics including oil depletion but also government, society, and the future.

Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 11:58:24

Well there is the rub. Obama/Hillary were no less corrupt than Trump. Obama was a more urbane and polished liar, Hillary wasn’t. So we threw out one crook, Hillary; with the idea that the new crook, not better than the old, would do something to dismantle the Obama legacy corruption. And at least some of that has come about.

But of course the D side will fight and hate the R side who will fight and hate back.

Nowhere in this mess is there a good place for the American people.

I say again this reminds me of a Middle Ages struggle, think War of the Roses or such. The serfs really have no vested interest in which side wins other than that the 2 sides should be be keeping each other in check.

Frankly the 2 party system is a travesty. THAT is what should be impeached.

It has failed and will continue to fail until it is replaced or it drags the country into either a civil war or party rule.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 12:51:55

Newfie wrote:Obama/Hillary were no less corrupt than Trump


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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 13:33:43

So, newfie admits Trump is guilty. Who else is going to admit the truth? What I said about subscribing to 'all of the above', that you have to admit to some truth somewhere or else all is imaginary and not fact based.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 13:57:41

So then hold all future Presidents to the same standards.

I also “admitted” that by your standards Obama should have been impeached, and you didn’t scream about him.

And Hillary should have been indicted by the same logic that Bill was impeached, he lied under oath. Now he lied about a scandal and Hillary lied about matters that materially effected the USA’s world position.

So I don’t see where you get to crow and be all righteous when you candidate was the bigger winner.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 14:00:09

ASG,

Really, that’s your best counter? That argument is in the opposite fee of “Your Mother wears combat boots.” It adds nothing to the discussion.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 14:04:25

I heard a good quote about the requirements for holding an impeachment:

“a broad consensus of the American public, a broad agreement of almost everybody, that this fellow has got to go because he’s a clear and present danger to our liberty and to our Constitution.”


Who said that?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 14:11:25

jedrider wrote:So, newfie admits Trump is guilty. Who else is going to admit the truth? What I said about subscribing to 'all of the above', that you have to admit to some truth somewhere or else all is imaginary and not fact based.


Guilty of what?

Trump ordered the transcript of the phone call between him and Zelensky to be released. Its very clear from that transcript that Trump is asking Ukraine to investigate Hunter Biden and the corruption in Ukraine. Everyone "admits" that.....its right there in the transcript, for heaven's sake. I think what Trump did was wrong. But I don't think its so bad that he should be impeached. Its actually how business is done in DC.

To me this is more a case of "dirty politics" rather then criminal activity.

Its very clear that what Trump did isn't unusual. During the Obama administration Burisma, the corrupt Ukranian NG company wrote to the US state department and complained they were being prosecuted, and mentioned that they employed Hunter Biden. And then three weeks later Joe Biden went to Ukraine when he was VP and threatened to withhold a billion dollars of US aid if the Ukrainians didn't immediately fire the prosecutor who was investigating Burisma, where his son was being paid millions for no work. And the Ukrainians did it! Why is what Biden did OK, but Trump's phone call requires his immediately removal from the presidency? Sorry---that doesn't add up. Why isn't what Joe Biden did an even worse example of corruption?

Similarly, when Obama was President he was caught on an open mic pleading with the Russians to go easy on him before the election and promising to be "flexible" with their demands after his re-election. Why isn't that corruption? And the Russians did go easy on Obama up to his re-election, and then they invaded Crimea after Obama was re-elected and sure enough--- Obama was "flexible" with their invasion, refusing to send weapons to help the Ukrainians. Why isn't that even worse corruption then what Trump did? Obama let the Russians out of their box and re-started the cold war, for heaven's sake. There were real consequences to Obama kowtowing to Putin.

Because what trump did is arguably less problematical then what Biden and Obama did when they were in power, I can only conclude that this impeachment is more about politics fueled by D hatred of Trump then anything to do with Trump's "guilt".

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 15:17:23

Plantagenet wrote:Obama/Hillary were no less corrupt than Trump


So, we caught this one red handed :-)
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 15:52:47

No, you aided and abetted the others.

The simple fact is that Hillary testified under oath that she didn’t understand the security process and counselor not remember getting training on it. Then in the debate went on a great length about how she completely understood the process and how it was implemented.

That was a damn bold face lie, one or the other. You want to talk about “contempt”? There you have it, she has contempt for the entire American population.

She served under Obama who ordered the summary execution of an American citizen and had US forces attack Libyan troops posing no threat to any American interest.

So how come you didn’t “catch” them? Funny that.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 17:12:02

Newfie wrote:Really, that’s your best counter? That argument is in the opposite fee of “Your Mother wears combat boots.” It adds nothing to the discussion.


You are the one who led the charge by just making a matter-of-fact statement that we're all supposed to just accept at face value. It didn't deserve anything more substantive. Before that I had, for instance, linked to a page listing out all of Trump's underlings who took the fall for his misdeeds. You're creating a false equivalence.

Plantagenet wrote:To me this is more a case of "dirty politics" rather then criminal activity.


Because that's your entire world-view that you can't ever shake. Says more about you than illustrates the actual facts of the situation.

BTW, nothing stopped the Republicans from trying to impeach Obama. Why didn't that happen? It's because they didn't have enough ammo.

Trump is the only one responsible for his impeachment.

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 05 Dec 2019, 17:36:50

ASG,

Show me the quote you are objecting to.

ASG said:
You are the one who led the charge by just making a matter-of-fact statement that we're all supposed to just accept at face value.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 06 Dec 2019, 23:04:08

jedrider wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Obama/Hillary were no less corrupt than Trump


So, we caught this one red handed


Actually we caught you red-handed.

I never posted the statement in your phony quote.

You are fabricating quotes, you liar.

Personally, I don't like to use profanity, but if Joe Biden caught you lying like that he would call you a "god damned liar" and a "fatso" and then he would challenge you to an IQ test and a push-up contest.

So just stop the lying, OK?

Please be honest when you use the quote function---is that really too much to ask?

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby careinke » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 00:09:08

Plantagenet wrote:
jedrider wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:Obama/Hillary were no less corrupt than Trump


So, we caught this one red handed


Actually we caught you red-handed.

I never posted the statement in your phony quote.

You are fabricating quotes, you liar.

Personally, I don't like to use profanity, but if Joe Biden caught you lying like that he would call you a "god damned liar" and a "fatso" and then he would challenge you to an IQ test and a push-up contest.

So just stop the lying, OK?

Please be honest when you use the quote function---is that really too much to ask?

Cheers!

Well I couldn't find it. +1
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 02:11:55

Well I couldn't find it. +1


Well, Newfie was the one who said what I attributed to Plantagenet, so I apologize.

However, your two views are very similar and you indicated that Obama was just as guilty as Trump,
so consider it a 'paraphrase' in that case.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 05:58:03

Do you think Obama didn't know that Trump was under surveillance by way of four Fisa warrants? According to Strozk and his lover Page, the White House was kept in the loop about it. Obama used the FBI to spy on the Republican Party candidate for president and then to continue the spying after Trump was inaugurated.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 06:09:35

Let’s calm down a bit guys. Yes JD miss-attributed something I said to Plant. That does not make him a liar, just human.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 06:32:06

It seems my comment about Obama being as corrupt as Trump has upset some folks. So let me explain my reasoning a bit.

First there is no doubt that Obama, on the surface, presents a more urban and intellectual appearance. He APPEARS to, takes on the guise, of a reasoned and respectable human.

I was always suspicious of his motives but that opinion hardened whe I READ his “BIG Climate Change Policy speech.” This was towards the later part of his second term. It was a relatively short speech.

As I read it I saw disturbing things. So I got out a red and green marker. If a sentence or clause was supportive of pro climate change policy (green) I marked it so. IF OTOH it was supportive of BIG OIL I marked that in red. Neutral statements were left unmarked.

At the end the paper was about equally covered in red and green markings. But also the Climate positive statements were all fluff, nothing constructive, just bland concepts. The problem Big Oil statements were full of references to past speeches and enacted policy.

In short his “Big Climate Change policy” speech was far more about supporting and expanding Big Oil. But no one did an analysis of the speech, the news snips were just some of the pro-climate phrases picked out.

In short it was a HUGE LIE, told with a straight face to an entranced audience of news geeks. Of course Fox would not call him on this lie because he was singing their tune.

THAT IMHO represents a huge example of massive corruption. It is lying to the American people to support a particular industry.

That he got away with it is the fault of the news media and American people in general so you get what you want. But no matter how you cut it it’s an open example of his corruption.

I pick on this one event to showcase the corruption. There are many other examples including his failure to act in the pipeline matter to increasing coal exports but they are all more technical and require more explanation. This once speech however shines a spotlight on his naked corruption. The rest is in the shadows.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 12:23:24

jedrider wrote:Well, Newfie was the one who said what I attributed to Plantagenet, so I apologize.

However, your two views are very similar.....


You should've stopped at the apology. But OK---apology accepted.

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 13:09:20

Newfie wrote: This once speech however shines a spotlight on his naked corruption.


Hey, did I get the attribution right this time?

That's a nice way of glossing over Trump's overt corruption.

By that token, we're all corrupt. We buy cheap clothing furnished by Asian factories run in slave-like conditions.

Conservatives are always willing to invoke the 'slippery slope' hypothesis when it suits them, but not otherwise.

Yeah, climate change is irrelevant at this point. Still, the conservative denial of all facts doesn't even compare to the liberal's denial of inconvenient facts
-- as Al Gore has correctly pointed out, although he was assuming it was inconvenient mostly to the other side of the aisle, but forgot to look in the mirror.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Sat 07 Dec 2019, 14:42:35

I would normally have something to add here but I have taken a wider angle view of politics pulling way back and enjoying nature and the company of our guests and I am sorry I can't just get it up anymore to engage.

Maybe the political mojo will come back but I like the view from where I am not being engaged.
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