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Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 18:46:42

Hill's Testimony is very Damning of the President
https://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/watch/mcfaul-hill-s-testimony-is-very-damning-for-the-president-of-the-united-states-73824325611

The backdrop is Standford University and the Hoover Tower, home of the The Hoover Institution on War, Revolution, and Peace (a conservative American public policy think tank).

It's been a while, since the Iraq War, that I've even heard a peep out of the Hoover Institute. I wonder what 'conservatives' are thinking about all this? They got their Supreme's so, perhaps, they're not too worried. Trump was the correct vehicle (for them) at the time.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 19:04:27

Ibon wrote:It did take this impeachment process to finally draw enough attention to the public to the depths of Trumps depravity, criminality, incompetency.


Trump certainly exhibited some incompetence here, but asking Ukraine to investigate corruption is hardly an example of depravity.

Ibon wrote:The details .... should put the nail on the coffin of Trumps re electability. I think this was the main objective actually of this impeachment process. I would say it is working beautifully. Look at the polls.

Everythings working as it should.


I agree with your premise 100%.

The impeachment effort does indeed seem to be primarily a partisan D effort to "put the nail on the coffin of Trumps re electability." However, it is bit premature to say whether the Ds plan will work or not. Consider the fact that Trump's poll numbers, low as they are, are actually higher then Obama's were at this time in his first term. And consider that when/if this actually goes to trial in the Senate the Rs will get to call witnesses, and no doubt they'll call the "whistleblower" and Adam Schiff and, especially, Hunter Biden. The TV ratings for that should be off the charts, and I don't think Hunter Biden is going to be a win for the D side, especially if the Ukrainians indict him soon along with Burisma.....which may well happen. And if the Whistleblower admits he met with Adam Schiff and Schiff denies it then Schiff will be proven a liar.....again.

Consider also that the Ds have to select somebody who can actually beat Trump. Personally I like Mayor Pete, but some black Ds are warning that Pete is a big turnoff to a lot of black voters....and low turnout among black Ds was one of the reasons Hillary lost to Trump in 2016. Right now Pete is at 0% among black voters in polling in South Carolina, so that looks like trouble for Pete and the Ds.

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 02:05:32

Before you jump the gun on Trump losing, you might want to wait until the IG report comes out on December 9th. It seems the FBI was altering documents to obtain FISA warrants to spy on Trump. CNN is now reporting this so it's something even they can't spin. Video at link.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZa55JTvJW4
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:28:27

Plantagenet wrote:The impeachment effort does indeed seem to be primarily a partisan D effort to "put the nail on the coffin of Trumps re electability."


Trump's base really doesn't care if Trump commits impeachable offenses. That's because we're pretty far down the road of the public wanting a strong-man dictator type.

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 11:31:17

vtsnowedin wrote: I would not want to repeat the experience America had with William Henry Harrison who died just one month after being inaugurated.


Shall I post videos of Trump slurring his words in a way that makes it seem like he's had or is having a stroke?

HALL OF SHAME:
-Short welched on a bet and should be shunned.
-Frequent-flyers should not cry crocodile-tears over climate-change.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 12:30:01

asg70 wrote:
vtsnowedin wrote: I would not want to repeat the experience America had with William Henry Harrison who died just one month after being inaugurated.


Shall I post videos of Trump slurring his words in a way that makes it seem like he's had or is having a stroke?

vtsnowedin wrote:
but again I did not vote for him and I am looking forward to his replacement taking office.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 15:06:22

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:The impeachment effort does indeed seem to be primarily a partisan D effort to "put the nail on the coffin of Trumps re electability."


Trump's base really doesn't care if Trump commits impeachable offenses. That's because we're pretty far down the road of the public wanting a strong-man dictator type.


This is my conclusion. In fact the more of a demagogue the more they love him and are willing to prostate themselves before him.


This desire for a strong man dictator type. Shall we analyze the psychology of a typical trump supporter so willing to be submissive to his corruption? I risk amping up the divisiveness which I would really like to see reach its peak but I do believe that this point needs to be mercilessly hammered down and called out.

Trump is a clown, which we should all be thankful for as he is no HItler but we have seen the worshiping of demagogues in our history and when the collective calls one forth they seem to magically appear and they know no allegiance to party.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 15:15:22

Maybe, no impeachment by Congress, just the investigation, it's possible.

I guess the calculation, judging by how House Republicans have behaved, that the House of Representatives will not want to give the Senate the impetus to have a trial that Republicans have the ultimate say in. That's understandable and politically correct as well. Just the outing of the information is sufficient and was not a waste of time (according to us Democrats, let's say).

So, the Senate is playing hardball by opening their own investigation into the Bidens. So, this is not over yet by any means. Guiliani hasn't been called to testify and, obviously wouldn't show anyway, so that will have to be left to a purely criminal investigation.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 15:29:06

I think Trump understand the psychology of his supporters better than almost anyone. He understands that their support of him requires him to play and posture this "strong man". He actually can't deviate away from that and suddenly become a statesman because he would lose the support of his followers instantly. They forgive him his corruption because he plays the strong man. Without that he is vulnerable so he is locked into his one trick pony strategy of being the bad guy and adversary and strong man against all norms and against basically all the institutions in Washington along with the media. What happens when the rest of the public grows tired of the divisiveness? Trump has no choice but to stick with the program because this is what his base wants.

As I mentioned he is not a victim of a deep state or of the polarity or of the democrats etc. etc. He is the conductor of this polarity. He is locked in and this is the only game in town for his political survival.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 16:00:19

asg70 wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:The impeachment effort does indeed seem to be primarily a partisan D effort to "put the nail on the coffin of Trumps re electability."


Trump's base really doesn't care if Trump commits impeachable offenses. That's because we're pretty far down the road of the public wanting a strong-man dictator type.


I guess its because your side didn't care that the FBI and intelligence agencies used a DNC paid for Trump dossier to start off a spy campaign on the Trump campaign. Or that FBI agents forged documents to obtain FISA warrants to spy on Trump even after he was elected. What is good for the goose is good for the gander my friend.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 16:19:32

jedrider wrote:Maybe, no impeachment by Congress, just the investigation, it's possible.


I take that back. Trump will call them 'chicken littles' or something similar, that they are afraid to 'impeach'!

As Ibon said, the 'strong man' must play the strong man role and belittle Congress: Couldn't be any other way :-)
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 16:39:23

Go ahead and impeach Trump in the House. I hope you do. But federal rules of evidence applies in the Senate. So lets have at it. I can't wait for Lindsay Graham to subpoena Hunter Biden and his daddy to testify. LOL
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:11:26

Cog wrote:Go ahead and impeach Trump in the House. I hope you do. But federal rules of evidence applies in the Senate. So lets have at it. I can't wait for Lindsay Graham to subpoena Hunter Biden and his daddy to testify. LOL

At the end of the day, the actors on both sides of the aisle will do what they think helps get them elected, not what they see as "right" or "to help the American people", etc.

Because of that, I don't think the senate votes for impeachment, regardless of the evidence.

I think the thing the dems really need to watch out for is that if they swing too far left and nominate a Warren or a Sanders or equivalent, they'll hand the election to Trump.

Now, supposedly, since the dems think Trump is the worst possible POTUS ever, etc. and:

1). Aside from lots of screeching, in the real world, a POTUS Warren or Sanders is NOT going to implement a huge wealth confiscation tax or most of the rest of their agenda -- not in a beltway where people in power value their jobs.

2). EVEN IF somehow, magically, Warren did manage to get the wealth grab policies through, it's not like the combined efforts of the accountants, the lawyers, and the billionaires who didn't get that way by being stupid, won't find ways to escape most of those taxes, even if they're somewhat inconvenient.

you'd THINK that they'd focus on ensuring they have a good candidate to beat Trump and go with a popular moderate like, say, Biden or go after the youth vote too and try Buttigieg.

But if political correctness and hating the rich takes priority over logic and reality, then they can go for the loony left, get Trump re-elected, and then hoot and howl over how it's ALL the GOP's fault for four more years. (As much as I dislike many of Trumps antics, they'll have earned a big :lol: from me if they go that way).

I continue to watch the overall political farce with both amusement and alarm; the past 40 years have convinced me that the US political system isn't the sterling icon it was purported to be in my schooling. 8O (Yeah, I'm a slow learner on this score. I kept wanting such ideals to be true).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:13:28

Ibon wrote:
Cog wrote:I hate to bring up Hillary Clinton again but I must at this point.


You know it is good to bring her up in this thread. She lost. Figuratively she was impeached, not only by Trump but by a lot of disillusioned democrats who didn't vote for her and stayed home. She and her inside supporters rigged the DNC. I think there was a lesson learned here.

Since the Me Too movement and Epstein and Weinberg Bill Clinton is looking sleazier than ever.

And Biden's son taking all this money from this gas company. If that is all true. I assume it is. Well then, you see the slime in the democratic party.

But you also see some significant push back from democrats no longer wanting to support fucked up candidates. It sure would be nice to see more republicans doing the same. Where are they?????

Both parties have some house cleaning.

I think in this regard the democrats might be ahead.

I saw that not from any bias on my part but rather as a result of many folks seeing the light that was exposed when they learned the true nature of the Clintons.


Good post Ibon.

Perhaps the D’s are ahead, and perhaps not. It will be very interesting to see how the primary/convention plays out.

Previously I had stated that Biden would win in a second or subsequent ballot due to super delegates. With this Ukraine ness it might not be Biden but Bloomberg or Hillary.

IF THAT HAPPENS then you know that the D’s are NOT reformed, but an extension of Wall Street, and that is where my money is.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:16:09

Ibon wrote:
asg70 wrote:
jedrider wrote:?? Creating a partisan divide has been precisely the formula Republicans have pursued for the last forty years.


Democrats are more interested in an actual debate on the issues whereas Republicans follow an ends-justify-the-means strategy of lies, slander, and appealing to outrage.

This is why the republicans have been more successful, as fighting dirty wins more elections.


Republicans want to dismantle government. They see government as bad. As inefficient. As something bloated.
The democrats on the other hand believe in government being able to solve social and economic problems.

Democrats are invested using government to solve problems while republicans see disinvesting from government as solving problems.

If these two sides where playing chess each with their own strategies then it would be a fair fight. But the republicans realized a long time ago they can just knock over all the pieces and declare victory.

An empty hollow victory where eventually everyone loses.


I think you are wrong, R’s SAY they want to dismantle government like D’s say they want univerSal health care. Neither one really does, it’s just the optics are different; like between Oldsmobile and Buick. Different badges, the same under the hood.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:20:31

Outcast_Searcher wrote: I don't think the senate votes for impeachment, regardless of the evidence.


I agree.

And even if Senators were to accept part or even all of the evidence they still may not think Trump should be impeached over what he said on a single phone call.

Removing a president from office is the most serious punishment possible, and I don't think this affair warrants removal from office, especially when compared with all the cock-ups past presidents have done without being removed from office.

Ultimately this just another partisan tussle, with the Ds trying to use the impeachment process to dirty up Trump and further their own political ends and the Rs trying to stop them.

Cheers!
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:28:01

Cog wrote:If you have watched any of the testimony Ibon, you come away with the thought there are career bureaucrats who only serve their bureaucracy and not the elected president. You saw this with a Lt Colonel Vindman at the NSC who thought his viewpoint on aid to Ukraine was superior to that of a an elected president. I don't give a damn what a career State Department person, or someone out of the Pentagon tasked to the White House, thinks of a president's foreign or domestic policy. Its not within their lane to establish it only to execute it. If you, as a career bureaucrat, don't like the president's policy then quit.

There is a deep state and it exists within every single executive branch agency.

But on another point. It was established that Lt. Col Vindman was the leaker of highly classified information to someone not entitled to have it. He should spend the rest of his life in Leavenworth as a result. Or executed after a military court martial.


My Wife came up with book, The History of the World in 100 Objects. It looks at 100 historical artifacts and discusses their importance. The book was written some time ago, well before Trump.

Relevant to your post the author repeatedly made comments on how some artifact was significant of the bureaucracy of the day and that how the purpose of bureaucracy is to retain order in the realm during those periods when madmen rule. They provide a sort of inertia or momentum to assure things can’t change too fast.

This is not to counter your argument, but to explain why some folks perceive their superior position. They are the holder of the light.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:31:07

jedrider wrote:The script for impeachment has already been written (at least, guessed):

Congress WILL impeach.
Senate WILL acquit.
?


That’s my take as well.

It’s not improved my opinion of Congress one bit.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 17:41:36

sparky wrote:.
actually it's not the "Left" pursuing Trump ,it's the Washington democratic national committee
the Left would rather concentrate on things people care about
which obviously is not some grand puppet theater being played now and will in the end amount to nothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsE3JMdxijg


I think that’s basically true. At the heart of each party is some core and they pretty u h control the agenda. And Trump is an outlier to that core. He got there because the core let its guard down. The D’s has more control of the process and blocked Sanders. I’m betting that won’t happen again. Warren has about zero chance.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Fri 22 Nov 2019, 19:31:49

Newfie wrote:Previously I had stated that Biden would win in a second or subsequent ballot due to super delegates. With this Ukraine ness it might not be Biden but Bloomberg or Hillary.
.


If its Bloomberg or Clinton then I will not vote. That is when I join the crowd that votes for Trump to watch the implosion.
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