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Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 07:53:50

charmcitysking wrote:
He’s the first president to ever do this and those here whom are claiming that Trump’s presidency will be the End of Days for the Republic are being intellectually dishonest by not acknowledging the good that comes from shining a light on the corrupt underbelly of these institutions.


I always have to marvel when Trump is given credit for exposing the underbelly of corruption. Or when he is portrayed as the victim of a deep state for his efforts to expose corruption.

Trump as Robin Hood........ amazing what some of you can delude yourselves to believe.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 09:03:48

If you have watched any of the testimony Ibon, you come away with the thought there are career bureaucrats who only serve their bureaucracy and not the elected president. You saw this with a Lt Colonel Vindman at the NSC who thought his viewpoint on aid to Ukraine was superior to that of a an elected president. I don't give a damn what a career State Department person, or someone out of the Pentagon tasked to the White House, thinks of a president's foreign or domestic policy. Its not within their lane to establish it only to execute it. If you, as a career bureaucrat, don't like the president's policy then quit.

There is a deep state and it exists within every single executive branch agency.

But on another point. It was established that Lt. Col Vindman was the leaker of highly classified information to someone not entitled to have it. He should spend the rest of his life in Leavenworth as a result. Or executed after a military court martial.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 14:19:13

Just tuned in for a brief listen to the impeachment proceedings. So, current Republican tack in interrogating Sondland is that EVERYONE was following Trump's orders, but Trump never gave those orders! Well, what else can they do? Seems kind of odd that Trump cannot communicate even simple instructions like that, doesn't it? ** UNLIKELY ** however.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 14:35:46

jedrider wrote:Just tuned in for a brief listen to the impeachment proceedings. So, current Republican tack in interrogating Sondland is that EVERYONE was following Trump's orders, but Trump never gave those orders! Well, what else can they do? Seems kind of odd that Trump cannot communicate even simple instructions like that, doesn't it? ** UNLIKELY ** however.


Kudos to the Ds on this one. They've caught Trump red-handed demanding a quid pro quo from Ukraine before releasing US military aid. Trump's claim his phone call was perfect was a lie.

It will be interesting to see where this goes. Maybe Trump will resign in disgrace. Maybe the Ds will chicken out on voting for impeachment. Maybe Trump will start a little war to distract attention the way Clinton did when he was facing impeachment. Maybe they'll decide Trump did another dumb thing but it isn't enough for impeachment? Or maybe it is?

Who knows?

I'm very curious to see what happens next.

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The clever D fox has caught that rascally Trump rabbit. Now what will they do with it?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 14:52:39

The script for impeachment has already been written (at least, guessed):

Congress WILL impeach.
Senate WILL acquit.

I'm curious about Giuliani, though. I wonder if the Democrats intend to go there?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 17:03:08

Sure enough....another big surprise related to the impeachment investigation....The Ukrainian prosecutor's office has prepared an indictment that accuses Burisma and its oligarch of stealing billions....and Hunter Biden is included in the indictment, along with other Americans. According to the indictment, Hunter Biden and his affiliates stole as much as 165 million dollars.

ukrainian-indictment-reveals-hunter-biden-group-made-165-million-

This makes it even more imperative that Hunter Biden be called to testify under oath in the impeachment hearings. The Ds have now proved that Trump was linking US aid to an investigation of Ukrainian corruption, including Burisma and Hunter Biden. Thats sounds bad on the face of it, but US law actually requires that aid be withheld if there is concern about corruption. If Biden actually was stealing over 150 million dollars from Ukraine as the Ukrainian prosecutor alleges, then Trump's actions may have been not only justified but required by US laws on foreign corruption.

I'm sure we'll get to hear from Hunter Biden on this at some point. Schiff is blocking the Rs from calling Hunter as a witness in the intelligence committee, and no doubt Nadler will block the Rs again when the judiciary committee takes this up. But I predict he will be called to testify when this gets to the Senate.

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Hunter Biden and friends named in new Ukrainian indictment of Burisma and its oligarch

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 17:16:00

Hunter Biden isn't the leader of the free world, therefore he isn't under the same scrutiny nor should he be. You're deflecting attention.

Plantagenet wrote:Kudos to the Ds on this one. They've caught Trump red-handed demanding a quid pro quo from Ukraine before releasing US military aid. Trump's claim his phone call was perfect was a lie.


And you keep framing it like nothing but a partisan sport rather than the wheels of justice and necessary checks and balances that it really is.

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 17:20:31

Ibon wrote:I always have to marvel when Trump is given credit for exposing the underbelly of corruption. Or when he is portrayed as the victim of a deep state for his efforts to expose corruption.


Yeah, shall I fill up this thread with the rogue's gallery of Trump officials who have been convicted or disgraced?

THE FISH ROTS FROM THE HEAD DOWN

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 19:08:51

asg70 wrote:you keep framing it like nothing but a partisan sport


Thats because it seems like nothing but a partisan sport to me.

The Ds just made a good play on the Sonderland testimony.....for a moment there it looked like they'd won. They proved there was a quid pro quo so now they've got Trump dead to rights. Surely the Ds have now triumphed over Trump. But WAIT! Off in Ukraine the prosecutor has leaked an indictment that names Burisma and Hunter Biden as targets of an ongoing investigation. That should help the Rs turn the tables on the Ds and argue that a corruption investigation of Biden was long overdue because he's dirty, thereby vindicating Trump's concerns expressed in the famous phone call that Burisma and Biden are dirty..

And back and forth it goes.

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The Rs and the Ds are in a big partisan tussle over impeaching Trump. Surely there is something more useful they could be doing with their time?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby rockdoc123 » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 19:17:08

I am having a hard time understanding folks interpretation of what Sondaland actually said in his testimony.

He clearly stated that Trump never told him to withhold aid as a quid pro quo of any kind. He stated that he just assumed that was why aid was being held back. And previously he has stated that Trump specifically said there was no quid pro quo. Besides contradicting himself several times that was my take away.

So basically this is a guy who acted based on some assumptions he made up in his mind but that somehow makes Trump guilty?
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 20:39:14

rockdoc123 wrote:I am having a hard time understanding folks interpretation of what Sondaland actually said in his testimony.

He clearly stated that Trump never told him to withhold aid as a quid pro quo of any kind. He stated that he just assumed that was why aid was being held back. And previously he has stated that Trump specifically said there was no quid pro quo. Besides contradicting himself several times that was my take away.

So basically this is a guy who acted based on some assumptions he made up in his mind but that somehow makes Trump guilty?

Politics as usual. Both the left and right call it as they want to see it.

That's one reason I more or less refuse to join either side re "belonging" or consistent voting. And Trump is just the latest big example of such partisan fighting and politicking, of course.

Hell, HRC is either the devil incarnate or the world's savior, depending on one's political point of view. :o And here I thought she was just a political hack riding on her husband's coat tails. (Not that I blame her -- politicians will "ride" any advantage they can claim.)
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby asg70 » Wed 20 Nov 2019, 23:58:22

Plantagenet wrote:The Rs and the Ds are in a big partisan tussle over impeaching Trump. Surely there is something more useful they could be doing with their time?


Blame Trump for getting into this mess in the first place. But let's be honest. You love political theater more than anything else in the world. I mean, you don't post big ass political cartoon images here for nothing.

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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 01:16:45

Trumps main crime was beating Hillary Clinton.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby careinke » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 02:42:55

Ibon wrote:
Cog wrote:Trump may be immoral with a high level of narcissism. Most politicians are exactly that same way. But process is still important here before we tell 62 million voters "Sorry we don't like your selection for president"


I don't know if in our countries history we have had a situation much like what we have with this current president.

I agree that in isolation this Ukraine debacle does not reach the criteria for impeachment. On the other hand the whole pattern of Trump being pathologically self serving together with the misdeeds and divisiveness and incompetence I find myself supporting impeachment.

What is required right now is something that would be unprecedented. Comparable to a family intervention when there is a parent whose addiction has reached the level of disruption that action is required. Currently that is what this impeachment process should be about. Republicans already know that Trump left to run uncontrolled would represent a security risk to the nation. There is already back room management within the white house attempting to contain some of Trumps most destructive impulses. That truth may force the republicans to put partisanship aside and do the right thing. That truth should also make the democrats tone it down a bit and do the same. Manage the removal in the least disruptive way possible.

Part of managing this removal of Trump requires some massaging of the electorate. The media slowly fine tuning its message to the public.

I wonder if this is what we may see unfolding ?

The least destructive way for this to happen is what some of you have been mentioning.... just wait for the next election. This still would require some back room maneuvers. Involving the media as well. The slow massaging of the public .

You can't just leave such a destructive live wire loose for another 4 years even if the electorate would choose to re elect.
To prevent that from happening there needs to be some back room manipulations... Not deep state. Just managing a rather unprecedented situation.


So you are advocating usurping the constitution? Then, I guess we have a problem....
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Cog » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 06:22:53

Yeah removing the president, by the actions of a small group meeting in secret, isn't going to fly with me or the other 62 million Trump voters. Funny how the left invokes the beauty of democracy until it gives them a result they don't like.

I watched the Democrat debate last night. It was a combination of orange man bad and here is some free stuff for your vote. Dems don't have a prayer if they don't get their act together. Which suits me just fine.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby evilgenius » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 11:51:32

Why does visible trembling matter? I'm curious because Trump was recently accused of having his physical moved up because he may have had a heart attack. He vehemently denied that. Hillary Clinton seemed to have an episode out on the campaign trail, and my friend who loves Alex Jones sent me a link to the video and had many bad things to say about her. Does being human count against you, if you want to be president? If so, does it matter more that a person was of a certain sex when they appeared weak? I guess these are questions we have to ask ourselves.

Meanwhile, it looks to me like, at best, Trump is guilty of gross incompetence. The only thing he seems interested in are his own personal interests. I have to wonder why Cog thinks that people who take an oath to preserve and protect the Constitution of the United States ought to allow such a one to direct them away from the implementation of that oath?

The office of the presidency does operate the executive branch of government, but the president is not elected king. There is a legal understanding under which said policy operates. In part, that is made up of precedent. But the president does not have to abide by such a weak definition as precedent, if they have an understanding of policy which contradicts it. At the very least, however, they ought to operate openly, as they propagate their change to policy. The people need to know what is happening.

If the US is changing course on its gradual push into the oil producing regions, it will take a while to make that change. It's a big ship to suddenly turn around. The current course implicates Russia as a villain of sorts, by their not cooperating in open markets which don't operate in order to enrich the fortunes of any involved, but to establish the price point between supply and demand. Similar villains have already fallen. Some are in the process.

The policy is ad hoc, though, and relies upon precedent. Because of that, it lies open to the accusation that it is a "deep state" machination. But are policies part of a deep state if they are brought about by the dedicated thought of those whose expertise and devotion are in a certain area, such that they will come to certain conclusion? Is it a deep state policy if many who are in such positions arrive at the same conclusions? Isn't that what has guided policy, under the oversight of men and women who have been elected to both make law and operate policy? Is that policy wrong merely because a cadre of people who don't understand it have obtained power?

But this isn't about not understanding. It is about anti-globalization. For the current US policy has only been arrived at with the understanding that economic globalization would be the world order. Trump has communicated his desire to pull back from that position. He seeks a more US centric policy. And that on a very superficial level. It's like he views any weakness to be dismissed, the way that vtsnowedin can so easily dismiss a candidate for 'trembling.'
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby vtsnowedin » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 12:50:47

I have not "dismissed' Klobuchar , but am asking the question' why she was trembling?.
I would not want to repeat the experience America had with William Henry Harrison who died just one month after being inaugurated.
To me that disqualifies all the 70 plus year old candidates and anyone else in ill health.
The job is very stressful and ages the occupant beyond their years.
Also I would not want a president that was not cool enough to be calm during significant events.
Yes Trump fails on both those counts but again I did not vote for him and I am looking forward to his replacement taking office. I just want his replacement to be a capable and honest leader. The current crop of candidates is not impressive in that regard at all.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby sparky » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 17:06:11

.
actually it's not the "Left" pursuing Trump ,it's the Washington democratic national committee
the Left would rather concentrate on things people care about
which obviously is not some grand puppet theater being played now and will in the end amount to nothing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HsE3JMdxijg
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby jedrider » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 17:31:47

Another good day of hearings. You guys digress. This is like a corpse being cut open. If Trump was a genius at foreign policy, all would now know.

As it is, the only people coming out bad, and Trump's culpability is already behind us BTW, are the Republicans.
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Re: Countdown To Impeachment Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 21 Nov 2019, 17:51:24

careinke wrote:
So you are advocating usurping the constitution? Then, I guess we have a problem....


Not at all. I actually believe the process is working. If Trump doesn't get impeached then we have the elections coming up.
Let the American people decide.

Forget about deep state and democrats out to nail Trump. His inner circle already knows of his incompetency and the Republicans are bargaining with the devil here. And they are already doing some back room mitigation and I assume this even reaches across the aisle.

It did take this impeachment process to finally draw enough attention to the public to the depths of Trumps depravity, criminality, incompetency.

The details of what has transpired, not just with this Ukraine scandal but during the last 3 years should put the nail on the coffin of Trumps re electability. I think this was the main objective actually of this impeachment process. I would say it is working beautifully. Look at the polls.

Everythings working as it should.
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