[ROCKMAN]

Newfie - "Do you have a link to ballot stuffing?" Just search "Michigan voter irregularities" and you'll get more links from a wide variety of sources then you'll want to read. I saw one report that in several precincts that voted heavily for Secretary Clinton there was a 100% turnout. Yes: every registered voter supposedly cast a vote. You buy that? Here's a piece from

http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/recount-unco ... n-detroit/

There’s something fishy going on in Michigan, where a full one-third of precincts in Wayne County – which includes Detroit – were unable to have ballots counted due to discrepancies with ballot counts. And one person reports single ballots being counted as many as six times.

On Wednesday, a federal judge halted Michigan’s recount after two days of ballot counting, saying there’s not a legitimate reason to continue. After all, Green Party candidate Jill Stein, who asked for the recount – suggesting the possibility of vote fraud and stating, “We must have a system we can be confident in” – never even had a chance of winning with just 1 percent of the vote.

But the judge’s decision came just after news reports began surfacing of possible vote fraud. The worst of the problems were in Wayne County, Michigan’s largest county, where 66 percent of voters cast their ballots for Hillary Clinton and just 29 percent for Donald Trump. There was such a problem, the Detroit News reported, “Officials couldn’t reconcile vote totals for 610 of 1,680 precincts during a countywide canvass of vote results late last month.” The Detroit paper continued, “Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662.”

And understand the Detroit paper story comes from a outfit that has always strongly supported D politicians...always.

Read more at http://www.wnd.com/2016/12/recount-unco ... aDDqtW1.99

[vtsnowedin]

The recount in Michigan has been stopped by court order. Any further action will come later by State or Federal justice departments.
Watch for ballots and other evidence to disappear between now and the time a Trump Department of justice could begin an investigation. Destroying that evidence will also be a crime and might be what they get them for.

[Subjectivist]

If it's accurate and verified that there are far more democrat votes in 3 Detroit precincts than registered voters, why isn't this big news? Why don't I find hits for this story in the MSM via Google searches?

When I do general searches for things like "more votes than voters", I find things like 2012 Snopes denials of the veracity.

When I add things like 'Detroit" or "Michigan" and "2016", I get no MSM hits.

When I search on clarityelections or clarityelections.com, I don't seem to get hits that let me establish the veracity (or impartiality) of this source.

So is this stuff for real, or are these early wild-eyed (completely unverified) partisan claims?

By the way, I'm NOT saying this isn't true. I'm trying to establish whether many credible, supposedly objective sources are willing to state it's true.

So far, unless I can find much better sources to verify this, it sounds more like urban legend than facts.

Here you go, the Detroit Nrews, one of the oldest newspapers in America.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/p ... /95007392/

One-third of precincts in Wayne County could be disqualified from an unprecedented statewide recount of presidential election results because of problems with ballots.

Michigan’s largest county voted overwhelmingly for Democratic candidate Hillary Clinton, but officials couldn’t reconcile vote totals for 610 of 1,680 precincts during a countywide canvass of vote results late last month.

Most of those are in heavily Democratic Detroit, where the number of ballots in precinct poll books did not match those of voting machine printout reports in 59 percent of precincts, 392 of 662.

According to state law, precincts whose poll books don’t match with ballots can’t be recounted. If that happens, original election results stand.

“It’s not good,” conceded Daniel Baxter, elections director for the city of Detroit.

He blamed the discrepancies on the city’s decade-old voting machines, saying 87 optical scanners broke on Election Day. Many jammed when voters fed ballots into scanners, which can result in erroneous vote counts if ballots are inserted multiple times. Poll workers are supposed to adjust counters to reflect a single vote but in many cases failed to do so, causing the discrepancies, Baxter said.

Even so, Baxter said it’s unlikely all 392 of the city’s precincts with mismatched numbers will be disqualified from a recount. The city is in contact with elections officials at the state of Michigan and Baxter predicted the numbers will match when the ballot boxes are re-opened for the recount, which starts Tuesday in Wayne County at Cobo Center.

“It’s a challenge, but we’re confident the ballots will match,” Baxter said. “I don’t think it’s going to be 100 percent, but it never is with a recount.

County reports obtained by The Detroit News, though, indicate canvassers were provided no explanation for why the numbers didn’t add up in those precincts. They certified the results of the election anyway.

In Detroit, 158 of the 392 precincts with ballot discrepancies had just one extra ballot accounted for either in the poll book or in the ballot box, according to the Wayne County’s canvassing report.

For suburban Wayne County, 72 percent of the 218 precincts boxes with discrepancies in the number of ballots were off by one ballot.

The other ballot discrepancies in Detroit and Wayne County precincts ranged between two and five ballots, according to the report.

[ROCKMAN]

vt - Been thinking the same thing. But more about CA and noncitizen voters. Have read that it's very easy for non-citizens to LEGALLY get a CA drivers license. And often the applicant is asked if they want to take care of voter registration at the same time. Supposedly one audit of new driver's license registration showed 30% of the non-US citizens given a license were also registered to vote. The very unofficial estimate is that 2 to 3 million non-US citizens are actually on the CA voter registration list.

[Cog]

I'm thinking Michigan uses the same procedure as Illinois does. On election day, we have a card for every voter in that precinct who has not already voted in early voting or had requested an absentee ballot. When the voter shows up in line, that card is pulled and put right on top of their signed request for a ballot form. That is then put in a binder. At the end of the night, whatever is on the tally on the ballot machine should match how many requests for a ballot forms are in the binder.

There is always some screwups, spoiled ballots, maybe they mismarked their ballot, or the voter had to register on the spot because we didn't have a card for them in the file. But the numbers should be relatively close. In the precinct I worked, I think we had a mismatch of about ten between the ballots that were handed out and that the machine recorded. That was in about five thousand votes cast at that location with early voting and election day voting. We were able to account for eight of those as spoiled ballots. So we were only off two votes we couldn't account for.

Something is up in Detroit and the county surrounding it. Something more than just being sloppy.

[Outcast_Searcher]

...

So is this stuff for real, or are these early wild-eyed (completely unverified) partisan claims?

By the way, I'm NOT saying this isn't true. I'm trying to establish whether many credible, supposedly objective sources are willing to state it's true.

So far, unless I can find much better sources to verify this, it sounds more like urban legend than facts.

Here you go, the Detroit Nrews, one of the oldest newspapers in America.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/p ... /95007392/

One-third of precincts in Wayne County could be disqualified from an unprecedented statewide recount of presidential election results because of problems with ballots.

....

Thanks Sub. I'd found that story. (It was linked in a post upthread).

But it seemed to be talking about something COMPLETELY different than Cog's finding on the three precincts. The examples I saw (in some other MSM article) talked about mismatches like between one and five votes. And unless I missed it, I saw NOTHING about precincts with over 100% votes cast.

I'm looking for MSM articles specifically confirming that in Detroit, there were multiple precincts showing well in excess of 100% of registered voters voting. (Which would imply serious, systemic voter fraud in Detroit).

[Outcast_Searcher]

vt - Been thinking the same thing. But more about CA and noncitizen voters. Have read that it's very easy for non-citizens to LEGALLY get a CA drivers license. And often the applicant is asked if they want to take care of voter registration at the same time. Supposedly one audit of new driver's license registration showed 30% of the non-US citizens given a license were also registered to vote. The very unofficial estimate is that 2 to 3 million non-US citizens are actually on the CA voter registration list.

This seems to be completely at odds with the democrat claims that there is virtually no meaningful evidence of voter fraud, no problem, nothing to see here, period.

What you are saying sounds like Trumps' claim of "millions of illegals" voting. Is there any evidence for that stronger than "Supposedly one audit" with no supporting link?

Like are there MSM articles showing this, preferable multiple articles? If so, I'm not finding them.

Reading some claim on some rabid right wing (or left wing, or any) blog doesn't constitute a reliable source.

However, my first quick search did get multiple hits refuting this on places like factchecker.org

Look, I'm a moderate and on balance, happier to see Trump in than I would have been HRC, though like many others, I presumed he had no chance to win. But I don't think it's useful to have discussions based on completely unsubstianted rumor.

With respect, I wish people would quit posting completely unsubstantiated (and EASILY refuted) stuff like this (about all subjects, especially economic doom) on this site. All it does is lower the credibility of the site and the signal to noise ratio, IMO.

...

(Or have I missed something and the true purpose of this site is just entertainment, so if I want meaningful discussion based on reliable information, I should just go elsewhere?)

[Newfie]

This is one of those cases where you have to read Snopes carefully.

According to Snopes the claim California made it LEGAL for noncitizens to vote is false.

However they do note that it is POSSIBLE for noncitizens to obtain a drivers license and get registered to vote. They need to show identification which USUALLY indicates citizenship.

I just had to replace my PA drivers license. They asked if I was a US citizen and if I wanted to register to vote. They did not ask for proof of citizenship. I suppose they could verify through my SSN, but not likely in the 15 seconds or so the questionnaire took.

So I wonder, how many states REQUIRE proof of citizenship (CA does not) in order to vote?

[ROCKMAN]

Outcast - Here's some links for you:

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2016/11 ... -home.html

Voter fraud'? California man finds dozens of ballots stacked outside home

Jerry Mosna was gardening outside his San Pedro, Calif., home Saturday when he noticed something odd: Two stacks of 2016 ballots on his mailbox. The 83 ballots, each unused, were addressed to different people, all supposedly living in his elderly neighbor’s two-bedroom apartment. “I think this is spooky,” Mosna said. “All the different names, none we recognize, all at one address.” His wife, Madalena Mosna, noted their 89-year-old neighbor lives by herself, and, “Eighty people can’t fit in that apartment.”

They took the ballots to the Los Angeles Police Department, but were directed to the post office. They felt little comfort there would be an investigation, and called another neighbor, John Cracchiolo – who contacted the Los Angeles County Registrar's office.

And: http://www.latimes.com/politics/essenti ... story.html

Leaders of the California Republican Party are alleging that the state's online voter registration system is susceptible to voter fraud, and say they are considering possible legal action in the days or weeks to come. "The [California] secretary of state's website does not track the IP addresses of the people who register to vote," Dhillon said in a phone interview. "You could literally register hundreds or thousands of people from the same computer."

When asked Tuesday how a single computer used to register multiple voters might be an indicator of fraud, Dhillon said she believes such a situation makes investigating fraudulent activity more difficult. But she said she does not support any ban on public computers for registering voters, such as the ones used in libraries.

The voter registration website, which asks for personal information, including a driver's license number and the last four digits of a Social Security number, was launched in 2012. State elections officials boasted last month of a record number of voter registration visits — more than half a million — on the website over two days in late October.

Not sure if it's fraud but truly odd: 84,000 folks in Michigan voted that day but DID NOT VOTE for a POTUS? From:

http://realtimepolitics.com/2016/11/28/ ... s-is-huge/

[vox_mundi]

vt - Been thinking the same thing. But more about CA and noncitizen voters. Have read that it's very easy for non-citizens to LEGALLY get a CA drivers license. And often the applicant is asked if they want to take care of voter registration at the same time. Supposedly one audit of new driver's license registration showed 30% of the non-US citizens given a license were also registered to vote. The very unofficial estimate is that 2 to 3 million non-US citizens are actually on the CA voter registration list.

Rock

Finding facts on the internet is not that difficult.

Since 2014 ...

Requirements for undocumented immigrants’ California AB 60 driver license will be the same as everyone else, but the cards will look a little bit different. On the front, it says “Federal Limits Apply.” On the back, it reads, “ “This card is not acceptable for official federal purposes. This license is issued only as a license to drive a motor vehicle. It does not establish eligibility for employment, voter registration, or public benefits.”


http://www.dmv.org/ca-california/ab-60- ... icense.php

... the design has met the Real ID Act requirements

The California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) reports it has issued 605,000 driver licenses under Assembly Bill 60 (AB 60) since it was implemented on January 2, 2015.

OBTW

wnd.com https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/world-net-daily-wnd/

These media sources are highly biased toward conservative causes. They utilize strong loaded words (wording that attempts to influence an audience by using appeal to emotion or stereotypes), publish misleading reports and omit reporting of information that may damage conservative causes. Sources in this category may be untrustworthy.

Notes: WND is an online news source that has a far right bias and dabbles in right wing conspiracies.

[Cog]

I know in Illinois we did early voting and election day registration to vote. The only thing that was required was a picture id(of any kind) and something showing your address such as a utility bill or check with your address on it. So yes you could register to vote without showing citizenship if you had an employee id card. In theory, a company should not be hiring you without verifying your immigration status but it does happen in certain industries.

[vtsnowedin]

...

So is this stuff for real, or are these early wild-eyed (completely unverified) partisan claims?

By the way, I'm NOT saying this isn't true. I'm trying to establish whether many credible, supposedly objective sources are willing to state it's true.

So far, unless I can find much better sources to verify this, it sounds more like urban legend than facts.

Here you go, the Detroit Nrews, one of the oldest newspapers in America.

http://www.detroitnews.com/story/news/p ... /95007392/

One-third of precincts in Wayne County could be disqualified from an unprecedented statewide recount of presidential election results because of problems with ballots.

....

Thanks Sub. I'd found that story. (It was linked in a post upthread).

But it seemed to be talking about something COMPLETELY different than Cog's finding on the three precincts. The examples I saw (in some other MSM article) talked about mismatches like between one and five votes. And unless I missed it, I saw NOTHING about precincts with over 100% votes cast.

I'm looking for MSM articles specifically confirming that in Detroit, there were multiple precincts showing well in excess of 100% of registered voters voting. (Which would imply serious, systemic voter fraud in Detroit).

Why are you still looking to the MSM for accurate and truthful information?

[Newfie]

Trying to answer my own question (over a VERY slow connection) about motor/voter rules I've come to this.

Many states do NOT require prof of citizenship in order to get either a DL or to register to vote. These include PA, VA, and CA among others. They ASK if you are a citizen but either have lax proof standards or none at all.

Federal motor voter legislation requires states to improve registration rates but does NOT require them to prove you are a citizen.

Real ID legislation, enacted in 2005 DOES require states to prove legal status. To date o my about half of states comply. States NOT in compliance include WA, OR, CA, MI, VA, PA, NY.

[vtsnowedin]

Trying to answer my own question (over a VERY slow connection) about motor/voter rules I've come to this.

Many states do NOT require prof of citizenship in order to get either a DL or to register to vote. These include PA, VA, and CA among others. They ASK if you are a citizen but either have lax proof standards or none at all.

Federal motor voter legislation requires states to improve registration rates but does NOT require them to prove you are a citizen.

Real ID legislation, enacted in 2005 DOES require states to prove legal status. To date o my about half of states comply. States NOT in compliance include WA, OR, CA, MI, VA, PA, NY.

My condolences on the slow connection. Been there, done that, and will not return without a fight.
There is no reason why we should be registering anybody to vote when they get a drivers license if they are not also a citizen.
I don't care if they issue drivers licenses to non citizens but the license should note the actual status of the holder and not be a ticket to voter fraud.
At the same time I am against any efforts to suppress voter participation by any eligible group. The idea that someone would prevent enough voting machines from being available and functioning properly in precincts that might vote the "wrong way" is abhorrent. Also the Vermont GOPs opposition to out of state college students voting in Vermont is stupid as long as they are not also voting absentee back at their parents state.

[Newfie]

Vox,
To your post above re CA. I think you are misunderstanding. What you say is true, what it MEANS is CA is NOT real ID compliant. That is they don't check for citizenship. That the card is not certifying voter eligibility is moot. The question is did they certify eligibility to vote at the time of getting a license? They answer is NO. CA and does NOT check for voter eligibility, it is self reporting, NOT reauired.

[Newfie]

Just got this gem in my inbox. From Change.com. 70,000 signatures so far.

Letter to
Minority Leader, US House of Representatives Nancy Pelosi
Senator Charles Schumer
Senator Bernie Sanders
Senator Elizabeth Warren
Postpone Electoral College Vote and Inauguration, Pending Investigation

Given the news that Russia meddled in our American election with the express purpose of electing Trump, that affects the validity of the election! I am hoping we can nullify the election results, and postpone the Electoral College vote and inauguration until Congress can act upon determining a valid President-elect.
OK

[Cog]

Donald Trump will be inaugurated on January 20th.

a) Peacefully
b) Over the dead bodies of thousands of leftists

Choose one

[Newfie]

The petition is not fake. Stupid, but not fake.