Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

General discussions of the systemic, societal and civilisational effects of depletion.

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 17:48:43

There isn't a Cabal, there are many & layers & cultures. Mos is correct. There is no sub collective who's extermination would undo the terminal equation.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 17:57:24

Okay I invite you to read a book by our own Montequest. "Madmen at the Helm". You can contact him about that. He also seems to have arrived at a similar conclusion as I have. I am sorry but just saying it is human nature and nothing can be done is a cop out. The worst of our human nature is embodied in the Cabal/Elite. Yet I for one do not surmise that we are some nasty evil species because we like to consume and breed. On the other hand wars and conflicts were not of our doing we were led into them by those at the top. It is not about an extermination of any group of people. It is about exterminating or at least managing the more primitive and base aspects of our nature.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10958
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 18:34:42

You are conflating. For instance, kill the entire Bilderberg group, their families, all the royals & despots. Then what? I'm not saying they don't exist or do evil, I'm agreeing with Mos that they are as interchangeable as any other bunch of humans. Knock em down & the setting will replace them.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Rod_Cloutier » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 20:21:27

So as depressing as it is, I've come to the conclusion that human nature is the root cause of all of our problems and it's not something we can ever solve.


I am also 45. I agree with you that taking out the scum at the top, will not change the outcome, where The new boss, is exactly like the old boss.

What we need to do is to evolve. We have a forthcoming Darwinian opportunity at hand, whether we like it or not, those that survive what is coming have the choice- to Evolve or to perish. I think most will perish, those remaining will have evolved into something new. This is speciation in action.

Those that are alive 500 years from now will have abandoned destructive memes, and psychologically will be very, very different from a sampling of the current population of humans.
Rod_Cloutier
Heavy Crude
Heavy Crude
 
Posts: 1446
Joined: Fri 20 Aug 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Winnipeg, Canada

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 20:41:20

That is so true Rod. Mos holds lifeboat ethics in distain, I believe symptomatically living near center of megalopolis- Boston. I have come to believe in my 48 years, people have extremely different ideas of space time. Not some lofty esoterica, but real 3d spatial awareness, consciousness of scale is highly variable in our species. I believe the real experts at scale are on foot, bike, camel, sailboat, etc. Most of the rest of us occasionally fly or drive from one metropolis to another, barely leaving the edges of megalopolis. We have essentially forgotten what an effort travel is, in that the machines do the effort bit while we sit for a tiny fraction of the time it took 100 years ago to go anywhere.

I'm not judging anyone, don't get me wrong, just my impression is that lifeboat ethics & social constructs are likely to be the only ones to get through the bottleneck, if any do.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 21:26:35

onlooker wrote:Newfie, I would respectfully note that the fact that the media is backed by advertising and that advertising obviously has a BAU objective, does not discount the fact that all this came about because someone(s) wanted it to be. When people dispute the veracity of the existence of a Cabal, I would offer the reasoning that the human world has been and is human induced and crafted. The modern world did not arise out of mere chaos and random chance.



Onlooker,

I put the Cabal in the same realm as "an all knowing, all powerful God" and "the silent hand". Belief in invisible beings for the sake of the believer. The modern world DID arise out of chaos, that fueled evolution, that got us here. No Gods needed.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 16090
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 21:50:29

Blame, in Kubler-Ross stages of grief.

Onlooker, as wide an array of posters as we have in terms of lifestyle choices, the hangers on here have all come to a version of acceptance. Perhaps we are all always tinged with a degree of denial, as may be required for sanity at times, but one way or another if this topic has got hold of you, the resolved you will be quite different to the one who first grokked the level of shyte we are in. Surviving psychological peak oil is a lot like surviving depression. Chop wood, carry water, stay with your breath & in the moment, it is all we really have, the trauma will pass like every emotional state, don't deny it or try to block it out, but let it pass. Chop wood carry water. When in doubt, need less, practice reduction in rebellion to consumption, find freedom, or die trying. Chop wood carry water. Real life is still very simple, we made it complicated for ourselves, chop, carry, chop, carry...
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 21:51:39

I posted the above befor reading through the following posts.

I have to say that there is some real good stuff here. Ennui, I mostly full heartedly agree. The one point of disagreement is over altruism. But we can discuss that point later, someplace more appropriate, if you care to hear my thoughts.

I think the comments on scale are revealing. I do have this sense that somehow we here on PO somehow divide into two camps. Onlooker and Dohboi and Cog for example pointing to a cabal, or TPTB, or Democrats. I have dug deeply at Dohboi for this, accusing him of being racist, not exactly the right word but close enough, as he blames some group of people, thereby believing that all humans are not equal and some deserve to live, or die, more than others.

There is another group (MQ, KJ, Ennui, Sea) that tends to see things more just as the nature of the beast. That group seems to get that we are all interchangeable. Ibon is pretty clear that he sees us going through a crucible which will change us, if not genetically then our culture. I'm not so sure.

Why the two groups, if in fact that is a valid observation?

It may well be relate to this "sense of scale." I typed to think of it as the ability to pull back. To view the situation from a remote view point. As I told MQ, to almost have an out of body experience. To imagine yourself as an agent sent from a distant civilization to report on the current situation.

Sorry for the divergence from topic. But I do think taking a more distant view allows one to better judge the state we are in.

Collapse WILL occur, I just don't know when or what the initiating circumstance will be. There are just far too many things wrong to stop it. Over population, climate change, resource depletion, water resources, an excessively complex financial system, exceedingly long global supply lines. It's a mess.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 16090
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 22:08:40

It is for reasons of scale I don't believe there is any value to be gained by trying to physically propagate the universe with our spawn. To my view of scale light years is just too far from home & we are never going there. Others see the scale as merely another object to be overcome. Human destiny & all that.

Some people see the world as conquered, but every day it conquers us. Our ability to keep up is limited.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 29 Dec 2015, 23:35:01

"What we need to do is to evolve. We have a forthcoming Darwinian opportunity at hand, whether we like it or not, those that survive what is coming have the choice- to Evolve or to perish." First I appreciate the insights of all, they are all enlightening. I think where Newfie and I diverge is Newf sees much of our nature as biologically induced ie. heredity and not subject much to change. I, on the other hand while acknowledging biological imperatives see lots of potential flexibility in our human nature. Thus I have made clear that I am not advocating removing the Cabal/Elites as some sort of elixir or something. I am simply saying that they represent a subset of humans who have and are examples of the worst part of our human nature in their zeal for power and wealth. We all carry some of that but not to their degree. What we must do is evolve as the above quote by Rod clarifies. Remember the oft stated adage "Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely.". So arguing for their existence does not negate the push of general human nature throughout our history. I would coin our history one of controlled chaos thus. Finally, in reference to Sea's point about coping, no I am not obsessed with the Cabal or with blaming them. I continue here because I too have arrived at a level of acceptance of what the future may bring. I also continue here because I find many of you to be intelligent and respectful posters as I always endeavor to be. By the way Monte may have a dual membership in the two groupings Newf defined. While believing in the almost inevitability of our path as a human species, he also recognizes the existence of a web of elites with rather bizarre notions of world domination as per the book he wrote.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10958
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 00:50:28

It is still blame Onlooker. How you can praise Darwinian competition for some time off in the future but grossly disparage those making the most of Darwinian competition currently is telling. The mega rich are not more evil than the average Joe Bloggs, just they have more power. If you were given the power of life & death there would be some people you would preference over others, to your own choice, some would agree with your benevolence & cruelty, others would think you a vile creature worthy of hate.
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 01:08:22

Interesting point Sea but I think my point is more nuanced than that. What I disparage is that facet of if you wish to call it Darwinian competition, that is predicated on might makes right and selfish greed and power lust. Their are other types of evolutionary pathways you know. In fact Ibon, makes reference to them when he cites that consequences can bring forth more enlightened communities that revere Nature and try to live in harmony. My blame if you will is not towards this Cabal but towards their actions. It is an important difference. We all tend to practice the blame game at some point with some group, that is true. So it is important to blame the actions rather than the person. If Earth allows us the opportunity to grace her surface longer, we need to quell the more base and vice like aspects of our nature. As Rod stated evolve or perish. To do this everyone must try and improve themselves. It is true what you guys say that as long as people remain with a propensity for exhibiting these lower aspects of our nature, they by definition will attempt to attain power. The question is not can we modify our Nature but can we display consistently the higher more noble parts of it and subdue and control the more ignominious and vile facets of it. Time will tell.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10958
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 03:49:47

I thought as a Latino American you would have more of an idea of how disparity works. When you travel to countries where your pocket money is a local family's life savings, do you feel the same as them? Do you feel you should empty your wallet asap & join in the poverty so you can feel at one? Or do you take measures- dress down, stick to 'safe' areas- (safe=rich), money belt, up market means of conveyance etc etc? If the latter, you are just like the ultra rich- protecting your privilege like your life itself depended on it. Your point is not more nuanced, but less, & the posters here will not back up your argument on this point, including Monty or whoever you like. The sensible & self aware of us can admit where we are really at as middle means 'westerners'- in that we are in the very small percentile near the top of the current Darwinian order.

(Whatever the Lizard People are doing, gossiping about, who they elect the most illustrious or who their latest poster child for hate is. Don't be like them, or at least recognise when you are & curtail it. In the long run there will be pitchforks & barbecues & God will sort the good from the bad. Study them if you find them intriguing by all means, but avoid falling into mesmerization.)
SeaGypsy
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 9280
Joined: Wed 04 Feb 2009, 04:00:00

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 08:34:03

Newfie wrote:

There is another group (MQ, KJ, Ennui, Sea) that tends to see things more just as the nature of the beast. That group seems to get that we are all interchangeable. Ibon is pretty clear that he sees us going through a crucible which will change us, if not genetically then our culture. I'm not so sure.

Why the two groups, if in fact that is a valid observation?


Good discussion. First moment in several days that I can have my morning coffee without pesky tourists bothering me in my musings over collapse. If I cant start my day with coffee and collapse it just isn't right :)

SeaGypsy's comments of chop chop carry is the right therapy for coping. And this gets to a fundamental point of wellbeing related to physical efforts, tangible organic tasks, etc. In fact, if you are metabolizing physically as you mentally ponder any topic your insights deepen as your knowledge comes from an integrated place. One of the modern human diseases is cerebral mind no longer integrated in a body walking about, chopping wood, getting some endorphin's moving. In a walk about, canoe trip, back pack or the morning chopping of wood insights flow. Modern humans in their hive dwellings moving physically about in machines is what explains a lot of intolerance and neurosis.

My mantra of the catalyst of consequences being a portal through which we may cultural evolve is directly related to this stream of thought about evil elites in one way. The line about absolute power corrupting absolutely. Our species practices hegemony on the planet, not just the elites, but those who wield power and manipulate the masses through advertising and money have been doing so for over 200 years with no external consequences. We are no longer beholden to god as we have become secular materialists and we are no longer beholden to our predators that we have temporarily subjugated. Multiple generations of absolute power truly does corrupt absolutely from the bottom up to the top.

We can all guess quite accurately that once external limits start to really squeeze then those that have the power will fanatically wish to preserve this at the expense of the common man and so resource wars and class wars will accelerate. The elite will manipulate the masses by race baiting, boogy men terrorists, etc. Divide and conquer just do everything to keep the focus off of your privilege. This is where I tend to agree with Onlooker in focusing on the elite just as much as I agree that there is nothing particularly pathological about them and that you remove one and there is an endless supply ready to replace them.

We have to remember that human overshoot is a kind of check mate for the status quo.

You guys realize my position on climate change and drying aquifers is quite simple. These are not problems to fix but rather the very solutions to human overshoot. Consequences = solutions. It is a way to restore balance. Another solution is the elites desperately trying to preserve their privilege to the point of sacrificing the masses. This does two things at the same time. It weakens the masses and helps reduce consumption and population at the very same time as it ultimately discredits those in power. This is powerful stuff and the extremes we will swing in desperately trying to preserve our privilege is really directly related to the foundations we will then lay for a more humble cultural evolution toward how we treat our mother earth.

We will not magically become a wise culture practicing humility in how we treat our planet without first plunging deeply into darkness as we attempt to not lose our privilege. Humility comes from experiencing the futility of this attempt and out of this failure will enlightenment have a chance.

That is how we will culturally evolve. Or as Rod said perish.
Patiently awaiting the pathogens. Our resiliency resembles an invasive weed. We are the Kudzu Ape
blog: http://blog.mounttotumas.com/
website: http://www.mounttotumas.com
User avatar
Ibon
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 9585
Joined: Fri 03 Dec 2004, 04:00:00
Location: Volcan, Panama

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 09:28:01

And here is the fork in the road you can say. Whereby some think we can change, others do not.
"We are mortal beings doomed to die
User avatar
onlooker
Fission
Fission
 
Posts: 10958
Joined: Sun 10 Nov 2013, 13:49:04
Location: NY, USA

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Subjectivist » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 11:34:33

onlooker wrote:And here is the fork in the road you can say. Whereby some think we can change, others do not.


I believe humans can change, I have seen it happen individually many times. I have yet to see it happen on a nation wide basis, and that is the minimum needed.
II Chronicles 7:14 if my people, who are called by my name, will humble themselves and pray and seek my face and turn from their wicked ways, then I will hear from heaven, and I will forgive their sin and will heal their land.
User avatar
Subjectivist
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 4654
Joined: Sat 28 Aug 2010, 07:38:26
Location: Northwest Ohio

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 12:09:28

My Wife was telling me about some new DNA research. It seems that there are some genes that can be set to a state. If a woman is born with a gene set to state A then her kids genes will be set in state A. If her gene gets reset to state B, through trauma or some other event, then her subsequent kids will be born with genes in state B.

That could drive change but I don't think we have a sufficient understanding of the scope or type of effects this phenomenon can cause. Far more research is needed. It might be just a curiosity for some obscure gene.

Other than that its down to natural selection and selective breeding. I suppose we could do some genetic modification but I don't recommend it.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 16090
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 04:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby Tanada » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 13:00:45

Newfie wrote:My Wife was telling me about some new DNA research. It seems that there are some genes that can be set to a state. If a woman is born with a gene set to state A then her kids genes will be set in state A. If her gene gets reset to state B, through trauma or some other event, then her subsequent kids will be born with genes in state B.

That could drive change but I don't think we have a sufficient understanding of the scope or type of effects this phenomenon can cause. Far more research is needed. It might be just a curiosity for some obscure gene.

Other than that its down to natural selection and selective breeding. I suppose we could do some genetic modification but I don't recommend it.


Epigenetics is a fascinating field, basically environmental stress factors can reset the switches turning key genes on or off. Women who experience famine early in life tend to have children that are very good at surviving on lower food intake, mostly by being shorter and needing fewer calories to be healthy. Also micronutrient deficiencies can be a factor, if a young woman has ample supplies of a micronutrient like Bromine in their diet their children may not be as good at absorbing that particular mineral as a woman who grew up where that nutrient was low in the diet and they needed highly efficient receptors to hold as much of it as possible in their system. One of the latest studies I looked at said this is why prescription drug effects can have such a wide range of effects on people. Different portions of the population have different receptors turned on or off based on the exposure of their mother in the period before their conception.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
User avatar
Tanada
Site Admin
Site Admin
 
Posts: 16240
Joined: Thu 28 Apr 2005, 03:00:00
Location: South West shore Lake Erie, OH, USA

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 13:36:09

ennui2 wrote:For the record, I don't hate Monte and was only challenging his opinions, not attacking him as a person the way you most often do with your mockery and sarcasm.


Challenging my opinions? You sure have a funny way of doing that. You seemed to be ranting that I was backpedaling, switching agendas, causes, to run with the meme of the day.

Overshoot and die-off are still in the cards, even worse. Zoonotic diseases are still in the cards. We all try to defend our prognostications the best we can. Only in hindsight will we know who is right.
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16588
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO

Re: Collapse probably won't happen Pt. 2

Unread postby MonteQuest » Wed 30 Dec 2015, 13:43:04

ennui2 wrote:There is no "someone".


No oligarchs or plutocrats running the political process? No big money influence? Do you watch the news?
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
User avatar
MonteQuest
Expert
Expert
 
Posts: 16588
Joined: Mon 06 Sep 2004, 03:00:00
Location: Westboro, MO

PreviousNext

Return to Peak Oil Discussion

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 17 guests