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CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Tanada » Thu 24 Nov 2016, 09:38:59

pstarr wrote:I did pay attention, smart-ass. The study, "a computer game simulating the management of an organization experiencing a series of problems and crises is . . . " bullshit. How reliable are intelligence tests of any kind? Intelligence tests measure cultural memes, the general ability to take tests, confidence at test-taking etc. But one that uses a computer game? Really.

It gets worse: in this instance comfort/discomfort with an unusual physical sensation (harmless CO2 overload) might in itself distress and disable a person's test-taking ability. Nervous people do not do well on tests. Nausea or other secondary effects may make one nervous. Reminds of phony anti-pot 'studies' that Planty posts year on and year out. Boring. Not mentally challenging. jejune.



I think this is a fair point. Physiological tests for effects of different diets for example have to be run over several days in a metabolic chamber to ensure that the air exchange between the subject and the room are measured completely. Otherwise you are feeding the test subject Diet A and assuming that is where they are developing chemical energy from to continue their biological process. If you feed a person in a metabolic chamber test food s that are very high in fiber but very low in calorie content then the energy they expend will by design come from body stores of glycogen, fat and protein. If you do not carefully measure the gasses expelled you can not determine what the mix of substrates catabolized is, so your test is invalid. By the same token to measure the effects of a major shift in diet from the Standard American Diet (SAD) to the Ketogenic Anti-Cancer diet you need not only a metabolic chamber, you need to repeat the metabolic testing weekly for a period of 6 weeks to 8 weeks because it takes the human body that long to shift its catabolic enzymes from being tuned to the SAD diet to the Anti-Cancer diet.

To do a real test of the mental effects of different CO2 levels you would need to borrow a submarine from someone, most likely the navy of some country, where you can house your test subjects for a period of eight weeks. Then you need to alter the air chemistry to those of the test and give the subjects days to weeks to get used to those conditions and relax so that they are not distracted by test anxiety. You also need to screen out people who are claustrophobic or afraid of water or so on and so forth that would skew the test results.

After you do all that you might have a valid testing program to study the mental and physiological effects of a 1000 ppmv or 2500 ppmv CO2 concentration compared to pre-industrial levels. In fact because you have complete control of the atmosphere you can also compare them to current ambient of 400 ppmv and pre-industrial ambient of 275 ppmv and even deep ice age levels of 190 ppmv.

This actually seems like a good study for the government to run to find out results, but as someone pointed out earlier the world navies have been operating submarines for over a century now and they often have quite substantial CO2 readings without severe ill effects happening to the crew. During World War II the US Navy used Potassium Hydroxide pellets for submarines that had to stay submerged for long periods of time and NASA has used the same technology going all the way back to the 1960's. Before nuclear power was adopted by the US Navy submarines would have nothing but potassium hydroxide and to scrub out CO2 and compressed O2 tanks to replace the gas the crew was breathing. Because the ship supply officer had to account for both the scrubber chemicals and O2 in his ships budget report they would not use the scrubbers until CO2 levels were high enough to effect crew performance.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby GHung » Thu 24 Nov 2016, 11:42:57

Tanada wrote:
pstarr wrote:I did pay attention, smart-ass. The study, "a computer game simulating the management of an organization experiencing a series of problems and crises is . . . " bullshit. How reliable are intelligence tests of any kind? Intelligence tests measure cultural memes, the general ability to take tests, confidence at test-taking etc. But one that uses a computer game? Really.

It gets worse: in this instance comfort/discomfort with an unusual physical sensation (harmless CO2 overload) might in itself distress and disable a person's test-taking ability. Nervous people do not do well on tests. Nausea or other secondary effects may make one nervous. Reminds of phony anti-pot 'studies' that Planty posts year on and year out. Boring. Not mentally challenging. jejune.



I think this is a fair point. Physiological tests for effects of different diets for example have to be run over several days in a metabolic chamber to ensure that the air exchange between the subject and the room are measured completely. Otherwise you are feeding the test subject Diet A and assuming that is where they are developing chemical energy from to continue their biological process. If you feed a person in a metabolic chamber test food s that are very high in fiber but very low in calorie content then the energy they expend will by design come from body stores of glycogen, fat and protein. If you do not carefully measure the gasses expelled you can not determine what the mix of substrates catabolized is, so your test is invalid. By the same token to measure the effects of a major shift in diet from the Standard American Diet (SAD) to the Ketogenic Anti-Cancer diet you need not only a metabolic chamber, you need to repeat the metabolic testing weekly for a period of 6 weeks to 8 weeks because it takes the human body that long to shift its catabolic enzymes from being tuned to the SAD diet to the Anti-Cancer diet.

To do a real test of the mental effects of different CO2 levels you would need to borrow a submarine from someone, most likely the navy of some country, where you can house your test subjects for a period of eight weeks. Then you need to alter the air chemistry to those of the test and give the subjects days to weeks to get used to those conditions and relax so that they are not distracted by test anxiety. You also need to screen out people who are claustrophobic or afraid of water or so on and so forth that would skew the test results.

After you do all that you might have a valid testing program to study the mental and physiological effects of a 1000 ppmv or 2500 ppmv CO2 concentration compared to pre-industrial levels. In fact because you have complete control of the atmosphere you can also compare them to current ambient of 400 ppmv and pre-industrial ambient of 275 ppmv and even deep ice age levels of 190 ppmv.

This actually seems like a good study for the government to run to find out results, but as someone pointed out earlier the world navies have been operating submarines for over a century now and they often have quite substantial CO2 readings without severe ill effects happening to the crew. During World War II the US Navy used Potassium Hydroxide pellets for submarines that had to stay submerged for long periods of time and NASA has used the same technology going all the way back to the 1960's. Before nuclear power was adopted by the US Navy submarines would have nothing but potassium hydroxide and to scrub out CO2 and compressed O2 tanks to replace the gas the crew was breathing. Because the ship supply officer had to account for both the scrubber chemicals and O2 in his ships budget report they would not use the scrubbers until CO2 levels were high enough to effect crew performance.


Just test submariners, before, during, and after service cycles (sea duty and shore duty rotations). Jeez,, we got tested to the nines for everything else. I think they gave me the MMPI about 3 times, and other personality/cognitive tests, along with extensive physicals. We all had to have pretty high scores on the ASVAB and other tests. Just keep retesting.

CO2 levels on the boat are logged hourly, as are watch rotations (and everything else). I think every service member now has to give DNA samples, so they could look for markers for those who seem more reactive to higher CO2 levels; all that stuff. Question is; who pays?
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby careinke » Thu 24 Nov 2016, 15:36:59

I've had several submariners (bubble heads), work for me over the years. They were all a little twisted in the head, maybe they had an excuse. :P
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dissident » Thu 24 Nov 2016, 18:21:10

careinke wrote:I've had several submariners (bubble heads), work for me over the years. They were all a little twisted in the head, maybe they had an excuse. :P


Thanks for the actual data, as opposed to all the hot air conjecture form others. Another issue for submariners is that they are breathing in a lot of nanometer scale aerosol that simply fills the air in the submarine and is impossible to filter. This aerosol not only makes it into the blood stream it also breaks through the blood-brain barrier. One of symptoms of this physiochemical damage is ischemic insults or brain infarctions:

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/46/12/3348

The nature of these strokes is not simple. They can be small and cumulative and result in progressive brain damage.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby GHung » Thu 24 Nov 2016, 19:42:37

dissident wrote:
careinke wrote:I've had several submariners (bubble heads), work for me over the years. They were all a little twisted in the head, maybe they had an excuse. :P


Thanks for the actual data, as opposed to all the hot air conjecture form others. Another issue for submariners is that they are breathing in a lot of nanometer scale aerosol that simply fills the air in the submarine and is impossible to filter. This aerosol not only makes it into the blood stream it also breaks through the blood-brain barrier. One of symptoms of this physiochemical damage is ischemic insults or brain infarctions:

http://stroke.ahajournals.org/content/46/12/3348

The nature of these strokes is not simple. They can be small and cumulative and result in progressive brain damage.


Calling bullshit on this one. What data? Besides occasional somewhat elevated CO2 levels, the air I 'made' on the 688 class sub I was on was considered some of the cleanest in the world; on par with surgical operating rooms. I know of no other atmosphere that is more closely monitored. Several times an hour, every cubic foot of air in the submarine was drawn through a large, very effective, electrostatic filter after going through a fine particulate filter system (micron scale). It then went through a room several meters on a side filled with high-grade activated carbon. It also went through the CO2 scrubbers and CO-H2 burners. Other compounds such as VOCs were monitored, and if they got too high, the boat was taken to snorkel depth and ventilated. Do you know as much about your air? Have you and careinke actually made submarine patrols or been involved in controlling atmospheric parameters on a submarine? Just askin'...

Anyway, an MIT study that explains some of the methods and hazards:

http://web.mit.edu/12.000/www/m2005/a2/8/pdf1.pdf:
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby careinke » Fri 25 Nov 2016, 03:58:35

GHung I don't doubt you at all. I've only toured one nuclear sub, (Traded for a tour of the AWACS), down in Puerto Rico. I was quite impressed. Still it takes a "special" type of person to be locked up in a can, submerged under several hundred meters of water, for months at a time. Give me 30,000 feet any day. :)
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby dohboi » Fri 25 Nov 2016, 09:11:25

One guy on another forum claimed that the increased CO2 may have helped men endure such long hours and years in such cramped quarters by lowering metabolism a bit. Thoughts?
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby Tanada » Sat 26 Nov 2016, 00:08:23

dohboi wrote:One guy on another forum claimed that the increased CO2 may have helped men endure such long hours and years in such cramped quarters by lowering metabolism a bit. Thoughts?


Lets just say I am highly doubtful the navy, any navy, would want lethargic sailors operating multi billion dollar equipment.
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Re: CO2 levels acidifying human blood

Unread postby careinke » Sat 26 Nov 2016, 02:42:40

Tanada wrote:
dohboi wrote:One guy on another forum claimed that the increased CO2 may have helped men endure such long hours and years in such cramped quarters by lowering metabolism a bit. Thoughts?


Lets just say I am highly doubtful the navy, any navy, would want lethargic sailors operating multi billion dollar equipment.


or nukes.
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