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Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 29 May 2018, 18:32:49

I think you can still have compassion for all life while recognizing that our generation does NOT deserve more than all potential future generations. And that we can submit to the inevitable and still alleviate greatly any accompanying suffering. This can be facilitated by truly recognizing the ephemeral nature of all life in this Universe. Ibon, as a Biologist you can see this via the short lives of some of the critters you have studied, to see them replaced by so many new ones. In Nature is it not rreferred to as the cycle of birth, death and rebirth?
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 29 May 2018, 21:36:37

" as the solution"

There is no 'solution,' just dis-solution

And, sorry, Ib, you seem to be trying desperately to be some kind of yoda here showing us the higher happy perspective, but it just looks to me like a desperate very typically Western attempt to put a happy smiley face on everything however horrendous...just because it exists, and if it exists, apparently it must be good.

Really, you need to read or re-read or watch or re-watch your Voltaire, particularly Candide.

Just because something exists does not mean that it represents the ultimate good. We do not, in fact, live in the 'best of all possible worlds,' closer to the opposite. And it is arguable that it is exactly those who thought and think that we are inevitably in 'the best of all possible worlds' that have brought about and helped rationalize bringing about this probably worst of all possible worlds...



Hope all have a safe and restful night...my gardens finally got some free watering and respite from the heat tonight, so right now, I am actually feeling kind of best of all possible worlds-ish, at least for the next couple days! :) :) :) :)
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 06:43:41

dohboi wrote:
Just because something exists does not mean that it represents the ultimate good.


What exists has no adjective of good or bad. It simply is. And the trajectory of moving through the consequences of our inability to self regulate as a species happens to be, by default, the only game in town. You and I could wish it otherwise but that doesn't change anything. Once one deeply accepts that the correction happens through the imbalances we are creating then you can move on to embracing those consequences.


We do not, in fact, live in the 'best of all possible worlds,' closer to the opposite. And it is arguable that it is exactly those who thought and think that we are inevitably in 'the best of all possible worlds' that have brought about and helped rationalize bringing about this probably worst of all possible worlds...


I have some sad violin music playing in my ears now to accompany your dreary prose Dohboi. Again, this is not the best of possible worlds, neither the worst. You persist on wanting to put adjectives to describe our species dilemma.

Our big and bulky overshot human population is like a massive barge floating on still placid waters drifting with no paddle or motor, we can see the froth up ahead of the white water, we can hear the rumble and roar of cascading consequences approaching.

Yes, each individual has to make his or her peace with the Overshoot Predator. I have done so and I wake up every morning, smile to the rising sun, and those three little birds, out my window, their singing this sweet song, a melody pure and true, and so this is my message to you Dohboi..... Don't worry, about a thing, cause every little thing, is going to be all right, humans will die off, nature will heal.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ind7BEZgWJU
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 30 May 2018, 10:08:15

"Yes, each individual has to make his or her peace with the Overshoot Predator come up with our own rationalizations for why we don't have to ever think about or ever take any responsibility for our own contributions to making current and future conditions the sh!t storm it has become and the worse one it will become. I have done so and I wake up every morning, smile to the rising sun..."

(Fixed that for ya! :) 'cause 'every little thing' ain't gonna be alright...)
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 10:52:45

In regards to rationalizations they are as resilient as religious belief and I fully expect the In Group / Out Group tribal nature of human societies will result in some pretty elaborate mind bending rationalizations as those who are privileged with the remaining abundance as we decline will twist and turn their rationalizations to deny those who are more constrained.

Under constraints we will become more generous toward our in group and pull together but become more selfish toward the Out Groups. What Newfie mentioned. This will indeed accelerate the correction.

Is this good or bad or ethical or moral. Good question. But largely irrelevant I am afraid. Wasn't it a few billion humans ago that we surrendered the privilege of the moral high ground?
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby ozcad » Wed 30 May 2018, 12:46:18

GS: Grandpa, why did you bequeath such a $#!+storm upon us?
GP: Hush, I have adapted my view and am at peace.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 30 May 2018, 13:44:13

In all seriousness, there will be fables written in the future about who we are today and it wont look pretty.

What will give those fables gravitas is the consequences. Trying to tell those fables today has no potency as it is putting the cart before the horse.

Let us all bow our heads in shame for a moment.

OK finished? Now get back to whatever it was you were doing........

It is kind of like being catholic, go to church on Sundays, make your confessions humbling yourself before god and then on Monday morning go back to boning your neighbors wife.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 31 May 2018, 08:32:15

oz wrote:

GS: Grandpa, why did you bequeath such a $#!+storm upon us?
GP: Hush, I have adapted my view and am at peace.


:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 31 May 2018, 21:58:39

pstarr wrote:Will somebody explain how and why in this time of great climate peril . . . green vegetation covering the earth's surface has increased by %50

Do you understand that intuition is a poor substitute for science?

So, just because your intuition says that a world in the early stages of global warming getting green must be a good thing, doesn't mean that's actually so.

Any more than a "wind god" explained wind better than pressure gradients.

Or any more than various creation myths in various religious books explained the development of the biosphere better than the science behind evolution.

We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science. How will your lush plant life like THAT? (Hint: lead melts at typical Venus surface temps).
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 00:09:41

pstarr wrote:"We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science"

We know that? No we don't. Because it never happened. Venus never had forests, humans, automobiles or hysterical AGW idiots . . . like we now have on earth

I have linked to the the Nature article and the associated NASA data. You might want to dig yourself out of your hole and try to fudge your way through some actual science. Indisputable proof that increased CO2 emissions and planetary vegetation have been in lockstep since 1983.


Yes, Greenland may become Green again. But, I don't think that's a good thing.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:20:19

pstarr wrote:"We know that a high CO2 Earth ends up with a climate rather like Venus, via science"

We know that? No we don't. Because it never happened. Venus never had forests, humans, automobiles or hysterical AGW idiots . . . like we now have on earth

I have linked to the the Nature article and the associated NASA data. You might want to dig yourself out of your hole and try to fudge your way through some actual science. Indisputable proof that increased CO2 emissions and planetary vegetation have been in lockstep since 1983.

So in your tiny little mind, despite all the scientific evidence, you deny that higher CO2 levels raise temperatures? You deny that Venus has a CO2 level of 96%. Or that the composition of its atmosphere is what causes it to have such high temps, despite what science says?

I never said Venus was like earth. I said if earth ends up with high CO2 levels, it becomes hot like Venus. That's basic science, whether you deny it or not. Whether vegetation increases in the short term is irrelevant. Can you grasp that simple fact?

Hint: True or false. Has CO2 increased on earth since 1983, despite the vegetation increase?
As you admit above, yes it has.

https://www.space.com/18527-venus-atmosphere.html
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 11:44:16

pstarr wrote:jedrider, that is not what the science tells us. It makes no predictions regarding global warming, only what has already happened.
...We know this.


No, we don't know this. That is NOT what the science tells us. "It makes no predictions..." ONLY refers to THAT particular article, NOT the science. Actually, it HAS already happened. We DO know what can happen to the earth climate system. We only don't know how fast. Maybe, making the analogy to Venus is a stretch, but wherever we are headed, it certainly doesn't bode well for large mammals nor our current ecosystem, which we are completely dependent upon. I suppose, some small fraction of mankind can survive on a diet of jelly fish, but at that point, I don't think we will be sustaining a technologically advanced civilization, and I would call that moment 'game over' for us with 'no bonus points'.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 14:54:16

Civilization's regret (under Capitalism): That it left any fossil fuels untouched and un-monetized.

It better hurry: Time is running out.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Fri 01 Jun 2018, 15:16:50

Doom, doom, doom, doom, doom.
:mrgreen:
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Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 09:58:25

Climate change is over. No, I’m not saying the climate will not change in the future, or that human influence on the climate is negligible. I mean simply that climate change is no longer a pre-eminent policy issue. All that remains is boilerplate rhetoric from the political class, frivolous nuisance lawsuits, and bureaucratic mandates on behalf of special-interest renewable-energy rent seekers.

Judged by deeds rather than words, most national governments are backing away from forced-marched decarbonization. You can date the arc of climate change as a policy priority from 1988, when highly publicized congressional hearings first elevated the issue, to 2018. President Trump’s ostentatious withdrawal from the Paris Agreement merely ratified a trend long becoming evident.

A good indicator of why climate change as an issue is over can be found early in the text of the Paris Agreement. The “nonbinding” pact declares that climate action must include concern for “gender equality, empowerment of women, and intergenerational equity” as well as “the importance for some of the concept of ‘climate justice.’ ” Another is Sarah Myhre’s address at the most recent meeting of the American Geophysical Union, in which she proclaimed that climate change cannot fully be addressed without also grappling with the misogyny and social injustice that have perpetuated the problem for decades.


https://www.wsj.com/articles/climate-ch ... mail_share
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby jedrider » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 11:07:37

I always thought it was a mistake to include any notion of justice in a climate agreement. How foolish of all concerned.

The “nonbinding” pact declares that climate action must include concern for “gender equality, empowerment of women, and intergenerational equity” as well as “the importance for some of the concept of ‘climate justice.’


It would have been far simpler if they just said "You Die!" as reason enough. Far too late anyway.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 11:44:42

Yes, I’ve heard that “argument” before, “We can’t fight climate change in a world that tolerates social injustice.”

Unfortunately any serious attack on climate change will hurt billions. I see no way around it.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 12:09:27

jedrider wrote:I always thought it was a mistake to include any notion of justice in a climate agreement. How foolish of all concerned.

The “nonbinding” pact declares that climate action must include concern for “gender equality, empowerment of women, and intergenerational equity” as well as “the importance for some of the concept of ‘climate justice.’


It would have been far simpler if they just said "You Die!" as reason enough. Far too late anyway.


Yes climate change urgently needs to be decoupled as a liberal agenda. Not only because it is ecologically unsound to promote social justice for all but also to move this issue slowly toward universal acceptance.
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 15:35:21

Newf, you seem to now be spewing KJ's absolute and utter bs.

How does the population switching to a largely plant-based diet 'hurt billions'?

How does people largely giving up air travel 'hurt billions'?

Yet these two would go a long way to reducing the speed and ferocity of the consequences of Climate Chaos, chaos that will indeed 'hurt," indeed kill, billions!
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Re: Climate Chaos Is Here Pt. 4

Unread postby M_B_S » Wed 06 Jun 2018, 19:22:54

I have nothing to offer but blood, toil, tears and sweat.

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