Donate Bitcoin

Donate Paypal


PeakOil is You

PeakOil is You

Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

How to save energy through both societal and individual actions.

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby Cog » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 07:38:24

How are those driver-less mini-vans going to deliver to the customer? Going to drop the package off into the street? The final step of the delivery process is to have a human get it out of the truck and bring it up to the porch or into a business.
User avatar
Cog
Fusion
Fusion
 
Posts: 12535
Joined: Sat 17 May 2008, 02:00:00
Location: Northern Kekistan

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 11:58:44

Cog wrote:How are those driver-less mini-vans going to deliver to the customer? Going to drop the package off into the street? The final step of the delivery process is to have a human get it out of the truck and bring it up to the porch or into a business.


That's what the drones are for. The vans take the packages to the street outside. The drone flies it to the porch. It's as secure as current delivery, more accurate and cheaper. In cities where porches are not commonplace the drone can either leave it on the walk or in a receptacle designed for the purpose.
Last edited by evilgenius on Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:29:29, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2655
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:17:20

I posted previously about Don Sadoway's battery. He, and his team, have invented what he calls a liquid metal battery. It's a big thing. The size they envision, for grid use, is the size of a 40 foot shipping container. It would produce power enough for 200 homes. The more I think about this, the more I wonder if it could work to provide power for an electric tractor trailer. If we break from what tractor trailers conventionally have to look like and picture a huge battery either right behind the cab or on a trailer between the cargo and the cab, then the only question is really how long can the battery power the motor the truck would need to haul it and the cargo for some reasonable distance? If the battery lasts long enough, since this doesn't have to be pretty or petite, it could work. It wouldn't be a solution to ordinary drivers, but it might do this.

Check out this Ted Talk, https://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy. In this talk Sadoway suggests his battery for grid balancing purposes, especially in how it could supply power gaps inherent to alternative energy. I looked at this after I started thinking about him again and wondered if a 15 or 20 foot battery with sufficient controllers working it, and using braking to recharge like is already being done on hybrid cars, would work. Obviously, I don't know enough about it. Even if it's really heavy, it would have to be extremely heavy for weight alone to preclude it, since it would be on wheels. The trick is, how long would it stay charged? If it would go far enough all you would need would be a network of truck stops. At those places the entire battery could be either lifted out as a package and replaced with another under a hoist, for behind the cab, the trailer swapped out or, if it charged quickly enough, simply recharged. You wouldn't need the same kind of fuel station style everywhere infrastructure for tractor trailers only.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2655
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby efarmer » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:32:52

A gallon of gasoline is about 36 Kilowatt Hours of power and a gallon of diesel about 40kwh.
Multiply this by the size of a car or truck tank. The biggest Tesla available has 53kwh of battery,
or about as much as two gallons of gasoline. The fossil fuel energy is inherent, the battery energy is stored from a real energy source, and at under unity of course. 18 wheelers hold 125 to 300 gallons
of fuel. On the optimistic side you only need a battery that can hold 5000 to 12000 Kwh to do this
task.
User avatar
efarmer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri 17 Mar 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby GHung » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 12:49:14

efarmer said; "The biggest Tesla available has 53kwh of battery,..."

Tesla's car batteries have claimed capacities up to 100kWh. Just sayin'....
http://www.theverge.com/2016/8/23/12611 ... -ludicrous
Blessed are the Meek, for they shall inherit nothing but their Souls. - Anonymous Ghung Person
User avatar
GHung
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2852
Joined: Tue 08 Sep 2009, 15:06:11
Location: Moksha, Nearvana

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 13:06:28

efarmer wrote:A gallon of gasoline is about 36 Kilowatt Hours of power and a gallon of diesel about 40kwh.
Multiply this by the size of a car or truck tank. The biggest Tesla available has 53kwh of battery,
or about as much as two gallons of gasoline. The fossil fuel energy is inherent, the battery energy is stored from a real energy source, and at under unity of course. 18 wheelers hold 125 to 300 gallons
of fuel. On the optimistic side you only need a battery that can hold 5000 to 12000 Kwh to do this
task.


Well, I just re-watched the Sadoway video. I thought he was saying something like 2 Megawatt hours for the 40 foot battery. That's an estimate based upon scalability. A 20 foot one might be less than a Megawatt hour because the scalability may have some kind of factor. It looks like it would still blow away those requirements. I wonder how heavy it would be? How far does a semi go on 300 gallons? You'd have to recharge before you went 80 times that or so, but it would mean that the infrastructure for that would not have to be ubiquitous.
User avatar
evilgenius
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2655
Joined: Tue 06 Dec 2005, 03:00:00
Location: Stopped at the border.

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby efarmer » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 13:31:11

Stated differently, 5 to 12 Megawatt Hours then. And the 40 foot battery hold 2?
User avatar
efarmer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri 17 Mar 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 14:33:26

Take a look at Tanda barge canal thread for a comparison of efficiencies in translort modes. Water is much more efficient than rail and rail is far more efficient than trucks, and that doesn't include the cost of the human operator.

If you want effiency gains get rid of the pesky human operator that need constant care and feeding.

But also look at eFarmers logic. It's all about the energy DENSITY.

And a quibble, no battery can or ever will "power 200 homes." It may STORE sufficient power for 200 homes, but that power is generated elsewhere by other means.

But really, the true answer you seek is not in making millions of semis run on batteries. The REAL LOW HANGING FRUIT is to change our life style so that we did ourselves of millions of semis totally.

Rant off, sorry.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12714
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 16:10:26

TransPower makes heavy duty electric trucks. They only go 100-120 miles so that's too short for long haul. But it's enough for short routes like between ports and rail yards.

Video: Battery Electric Class 8 Semi-Trailer Truck

This truck, and the first two of the seven pre-commercial trucks being deployed, have demonstrated performance equal to or superior to diesel trucks in many respects, including faster acceleration, the capacity to pull loads of up to 80,000 lb., and top operating speeds of greater than 65 miles per hour. Equipped with extra-large battery subsystems weighing nearly 6,000 lb., these trucks can haul heavy loads for up to 100 miles on a single battery charge with unprecedented energy efficiency for vehicles of this class.

The five battery enclosures in the Class 8 ElecTruck design provide a total of approximately 215 kilowatt-hours (kWh) of total energy storage.
ELECTRIC CLASS 8 TRUCK PRODUCT DESCRIPTION

TransPower conducted a demonstration of four fully functional battery-electric Class 8 trucks, just hours after the California Energy Commission (CEC) announced its award of nearly $9 million to TransPower for new electric truck and tractor demonstration projects throughout the state of California.

“We are especially proud of the fact that we drove all four of these trucks from the heart of San Diego County 110 miles to the Los Angeles-Long Beach port region,” said Mike Simon, President & CEO of TransPower. “These four trucks have made more than ten intercity trips of about 80 to 120 miles over the past year and we believe our battery-electric vehicles are the only proven, fully operational zero emission trucks in the world capable of hauling loads up to the Class 8 truck limit of 80,000 pounds.”

TransPower’s success in deploying electric trucks and tractors that operate reliably under real-world conditions was likely a factor in the CEC’s announcement that TransPower will receive funding for three new truck and tractor demonstration projects. These new projects, expected to begin by this summer and to result in new vehicle deployments by next year, include:

* A collaboration with four operators of yard tractor fleets – IKEA, Harris Ranch, Grimmway Farms, and Devine Intermodal – to deploy five battery-electric yard tractors in California’s Central Valley and Sacramento. Five new tractors will be distributed among these fleets, augmenting five similar tractors TransPower built in 2014, which are currently being operated by fleet operators such as IKEA, Dole Fresh Fruits, and SA Recycling. TransPower’s proposal for the new tractor demonstration was the highest ranked proposal of 33 proposals received by the CEC for funding under its “Medium- and Heavy-Duty Advanced Vehicle Technology Demonstration” program.
* A project to demonstrate two additional electric tractors with Dole at the Port of San Diego, along with electric drayage trucks to be operated at the Port of San Diego by BAE Systems and Terminalift. This project will also involve the upgrade of a large battery-operated “reach stacker” vehicle which TransPower built with funding from Terminalift in 2014. This proposal was ranked third among the 33 proposals reviewed by the CEC.
* A project to install TransPower’s battery-electric truck system into a demonstration fleet of three refuse trucks. Two of these trucks will be operated by the County of Sacramento and the third will be operated by a major waste hauling firm to be named later. This proposal was ranked fourth among the 33 funding requests received by the CEC.
$16 million in New Orders for TransPower Trucks and Tractors
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 4499
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby kublikhan » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 16:17:26

Mercedes-Benz electric truck:

Video: New 2017 Mercedes-Benz Urban eTruck

Daimler Trucks is presenting the Mercedes-Benz Urban eTruck in Stuttgart, as the first fully electric truck with an admissible total weight of up to 26 tonnes. The power is supplied by a battery pack consisting of three lithium-ion battery modules. This results in a range of up to 200 km.
Mercedes-Benz: First fully electric truck
The oil barrel is half-full.
User avatar
kublikhan
Master Prognosticator
Master Prognosticator
 
Posts: 4499
Joined: Tue 06 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Illinois

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 16:27:43

Can we keep things simple? For the purposes of this discussion, a "battery" is something that one charges from grid electricity, then discharges to achieve another purpose such as running a vehicle or a house off the grid.

The electric drive Nikola 1 in my first post in this thread uses hydrogen fuel cells. They are NOT batteries, they are primary energy sources that consume hydrogen fuel and make electricity. The huge batteries that use liquid metals, liquid sulfur, or other high temperature electrolytes are also primary energy sources, not energy storage media.

An electric heavy truck with an overhead catenary and a ground connection would be possible, and need only have enough real battery storage to maneuver to and from the Interstate Highway. The Nikola 1 above does in fact have a 320 KWh battery as an efficiency booster - you would climb a grade using the hydrogen fuel, and as you coast down the other side, you run the motors as generators and recapture most of that energy expended going uphill, i.e. "regenerative braking".

I would appreciate it if you would please distinguish between true storage batteries and flow batteries, fuel cells, and other energy sources for the purposes of this thread.

Edit: The Mercedes truck chassis shown is NOT a tractor/trailer heavy truck, it is a "medium truck" used for local deliveries in an urban setting, when fitted with a large "delivery van" body on the rear. YES it is an interesting EV, but it will play no part in our discussion of heavy long range freight alternatives. The 200 Km range of the bare chassis will probably be halved when loaded to capacity - but 100 Km is still a useful range for urban delivery.

baha: My name is on a few patents, but as with you they "belong" to my former employer. Now that I'm retired, I find that all those 10+ year old computer circuitry patents plus $2.10 will buy me a cup of coffee. I have those patents enumerated in certificates and engraved plaques that I used to hang in my office at work (we called it an "I love me wall"), but those have now been in storage for 8 years, and I will probably recycle the frames and glass to display pictures of my grandkids.
KaiserJeep 2.0, Neural Subnode 0010 0000 0001 0110 - 1001 0011 0011, Tertiary Adjunct to Unimatrix 0000 0000 0001

Resistance is Futile, YOU will be Assimilated.

Warning: Messages timestamped before April 1, 2016, 06:00 PST were posted by the unmodified human KaiserJeep 1.0
KaiserJeep
Light Sweet Crude
Light Sweet Crude
 
Posts: 6094
Joined: Tue 06 Aug 2013, 16:16:32
Location: Wisconsin's Dreamland

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby Zarquon » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 18:40:09

KaiserJeep wrote:I'm not kidding about this. Trump needs to add $1 per gallon tax to each gallon sold, and bump that $1 for each year he is in office, and keep the current EV incentives in place while doing so. We HAVE the technology we need to replace 95% of the consumer vehicles, and we need to build the charging infrastructure.

If he has real cajones, he should ban new ICE vehicles in say 10 years. If he wants to make an exception such as say a $25,000 "gas guzzler" tax for a new ICE vehicle, I'll listen to the argument, at least. Nor would I add the gas guzzler tax to a vehicle that burns alcohols, LPG, CNG, biodiesel, etc - anything but petroleum derived gasoline and diesel fuels.


It doesn't even need a president to make a real difference. My uneducated guess is that any state governor or mayor could probably mandate an EV quota for state/municipal vehicles, unless they're for emergency services. Replace only 10%/year of all the others with new EVs, which is probably close to the normal replacement rate anyway. In a country like the US that could add up to hundreds of thousands every year. In the end, it's still taxpayer money, but it would be much less unpopular than higher consumer taxes. And it could all be initiated at the local level.
Zarquon
Lignite
Lignite
 
Posts: 273
Joined: Fri 06 May 2016, 19:53:46

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby efarmer » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 20:01:56

When applying lithium ion cells to megawatt power needs like this can be better understood by some simple notions. The current electric car / hybrid standard is the 18650 lithium ion cell and it provides about 12 watt hours as it give current over time (3.6V to 2.7V usage span assumed). The new Tesla Gigafactory 2170 cells come in at about 18 watt hours. So you see how 5 megawatt hours wants there to be about 278,000 Gigafactory or 417,000 present standard 18650 cells plus some spares in a battery pack arrangement. That is a show stopper. But the people scaling up to tractor trailer EV are actually using LiFePo4 batteries with much larger cells, right now 400aH cells capable of 1.26kwh are used, and Winston (one manufacturer) offers 1000aH cells providing 3.15kwh are available and weigh 41 kilograms each (circa 90 pounds) and we get to 5 megawatt hours with just 1587 cells,or 143,000 pounds of batteries.

Now the kwh hours in a gallon of diesel get wasted getting to wheels in many ways that a battery powered truck with electric motors right at each wheel does not. But I am attempting to paint an easy to see picture of what a steep climb it is to match the current diesel tractor trailer fleet with battery power using present technology, of course especially with truck range per refill / recharge.

But let's say for the sake of argument, we just do this right now and scrap the diesel tractor fleets, millions of 18 wheelers suddenly needing daily chargings of some megawatt hours each has to come from the grid and not out of the petroleum infrastructure, and you have to deliver those megawatts in many of the places where you see truck stops now.

Ths is not trivial, and I am not against the idea, it is just when I do the simplest equate between what the battery has to be to swap for diesel I am humbled. At 6 to 7 (10-11 in isolated best cases) miles per gallon presently the diesel tank capacities of 125 to 300 gallons represents a range that is roughly 650 min to 1800 max when the tanks run dry. Diesel weighs roughly 7 pounds per gallon so the truck when fueled fully has a fuel load of 875 to 3000 pounds again based on 125 to 300 gallons capacity.
User avatar
efarmer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri 17 Mar 2006, 03:00:00

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 25 Jan 2017, 21:05:04

Better than 18 wheelers just electrify the freight railroads.

Existing technology, immediate effeciency improvement just by going from truck to train.

I mean really, what are you trying to accomplish with all this hoop jumping that could be accomplished far more simply?

Not to mention just not using so much stuff, like 18 bazillion creaking batteries and all the pollution that comes from that. Like the ones that keep failing on new airplanes? How reliable!

You are going to have to learn to live happily with less. Everyone else in the world does. Get over it.
User avatar
Newfie
Forum Moderator
Forum Moderator
 
Posts: 12714
Joined: Thu 15 Nov 2007, 03:00:00
Location: Between Canada and Carribean

Re: Can they run millions of 18 wheeler's on batteries?

Unread postby efarmer » Thu 26 Jan 2017, 11:11:11

Yes indeed baha, BAU is ridicuolously wasteful, and F=ma goes out the window when you have relatively cheap and plentiful petroleum, because "F" becomes cheap and easy and "a" becomes thrilling and fun, while "m" is allowed to fatten up for style and comfort. I do enjoy these forums for the same reason, there is real and dynamic content, as well as all of the sniping and thundermug rides on the pitty pot of doom. The internet is an instant gratification medium, and it tends to inspire people to think that the right idea and technology can be implemented similar to taking down the servers for a few hours and loading new code. And as always there are rumors of almost free energy for just a couple of j$ to a besieged individual who has been hounded by the energy industry and government to silence him, but who conjures the stones to persist and ply his wares online.
User avatar
efarmer
Intermediate Crude
Intermediate Crude
 
Posts: 2003
Joined: Fri 17 Mar 2006, 03:00:00

PreviousNext

Return to Conservation & Efficiency

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests

cron