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Bitcoin & crypto?

Discussions about the economic and financial ramifications of PEAK OIL

Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 11 Dec 2017, 19:36:41

pstarr wrote:
onlooker wrote:Yep it all now Bubblenomics

It figures its outcaste promoting this bubble. He doesn't get energy.

So Cog is not falling for it?
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby pstarr » Mon 11 Dec 2017, 20:13:19

asg70 wrote:
pstarr wrote:It's all a con


And so you continue your devolution into StarvingLion.

Did you see the chart excerpt I posted above? It's about the energy expended to create, manage and sell crypto currency?

While the new thing might make sense to an early adaptor like yourself (one accustomed to disrupting paradigms and all) others might question its sustainability, from an energetic, as well as economic perspective.

You gonna disrupt that shit. Like you have the Tesla meme? Or stay on the sidelines. :cry: Get it asgy. Now is the TIME@! 8) Yo!
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Mon 11 Dec 2017, 21:50:34

Crypto is the perfect investment for the era when there's nothing left worth investing in- make nothing into something, burn a shitload of energy mining the nothing, convince people the nothing is really something...

Crypto is supposed to be an advance, but really just shows how far down the FUBAR road we have come.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby careinke » Mon 11 Dec 2017, 22:31:43

SeaGypsy wrote:Crypto is the perfect investment for the era when there's nothing left worth investing in- make nothing into something, burn a shitload of energy mining the nothing, convince people the nothing is really something...

Crypto is supposed to be an advance, but really just shows how far down the FUBAR road we have come.


How is this any different than Federal Reserve Notes? Except that the Federal Reserve Notes are designed to depreciate at 2-3% per year making them less and less valuable over time, and crypto currencies are usually deflationary and the value becomes greater over time. 8)

Mining is the way the network remains functioning, similar to using energy to keep the internet going, should we close down the internet because it uses energy? Or is the value of the internet higher than the cost of the energy to keep it operating?

Mining also encourages the development of faster and more energy efficient computers.

Up to now, most of the investors in cryptocurrency has been retail investors. Now big money from institutions, hedge funds etc are getting onboard. It's like the prodigy days of the internet. You haven't seen nothing yet.

Although I intend to hold my Bitcoin, I think I will add additional money to lightcoin. I expect a rise faster than Bitcoin for 2018.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 12 Dec 2017, 01:07:55

Crypto is 'usually' used by criminals & money launderers, besides which it doesn't 'usually' do anything, because 8 years is not long enough to prove jack about what it does.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 12 Dec 2017, 04:57:24

Simply based on the prodigious amounts of energy it uses, it is a boondoggle. Memo to the optimists, the era of contraction and tumult is right around the corner. Energy guzzling endeavors of all kinds will be passe.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Cog » Tue 12 Dec 2017, 08:30:52

I'm quite happy for the people making money on this. But yet it feels like some sort of Ponzi scheme to me like Beanie babies. Have an exit strategy.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby forbin » Tue 12 Dec 2017, 10:10:29

on mining - years ago you had accounting on main frame computers so you could "charge" departments for how many cpu cycles they used....

ok with yer home computer this would not work - mind you you are the one with the 'leccy bill at the end

if using Cloud computing - I see an opportunity there ;-)

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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby pstarr » Tue 12 Dec 2017, 10:58:54

It's communism (cog should like this). The overhead in server time and electricity is shared by all users of each participating server, not just the the person buying or selling the coin or those employing the blockchain.

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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby davep » Tue 12 Dec 2017, 11:43:39

The problem with Bitcoin is that is uses "Proof of Work" via mining for consensus on the blockchain, and that it is set to get progressively harder over time. It will be unfeasible energy-wise over time.

However, there are other means of achieving consensus, such as "Byzantine Consensus" and "Proof of Stake". Ethereum is meant to transition from Proof of Work to Proof of Stake (minimum 1000 Ether stake) some time over the next couple of years. This means the transaction rate can be far higher and negligible energy can be used. It seems a far more sustainable model to me.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 14:04:22

SEC suspends trading of red-hot bitcoin stock

Is bitcoin a bubble? Maybe. Maybe not. Only time will tell. But there are some small publicly traded companies trying to ride the wave of cryptocurrency and blockchain mania that look pretty sketchy. Call them the bitcons if you will.

The Securities and Exchange Commission suspended trading Tuesday of The Crypto Company until January 3, citing "concerns regarding the accuracy and adequacy of information" about compensation paid to promote the firm and plans for insider sales.

The Crytpo Company describes itself as a business that "offers a portfolio of digital assets, technologies, and consulting services to the blockchain and cryptocurrency markets" with plans for a "rollout of a full scale, high frequency cryptocurrency trading floor."

Shares of The Crypto Company (CRCW) have surged nearly 160% in the past five days, more than 1,800% in the past month and 17,000% in the past three months, as investors and traders have bid up the price of bitcoin (XBT) higher and higher.

That stunning rise has lifted the company's market value to more than $11 billion. To put that in perspective, that's higher than the market value of well-known brand name companies like Macy's (M), The New York Times (NYT) and Under Armour (UAA). .....

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/19/investi ... index.html


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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 15:32:09

Anyone with a Facebook account has seen dozens of ads for Bitcoin & crypto trading account companies. They are popping up like mushrooms, crawling out like leeches. I picked an argument with one recently about his promising returns averaging 1.5% daily. That's just lying, nobody can promise any return on such an investment, but such sales tactics are rife. They are suckering millions of people's billions of dollars using false promises. Most investors are newbies, with no experience in either stock or currency trading- easily misled. This can't end well.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Sys1 » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 15:52:02

Bitcoin is a Ponzi Scheme 2.0.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 19 Dec 2017, 18:16:35

I echo what Sea and Sys said. This has all the makings of your classic bubble ponzi. It's attractiveness as something decentralized and opaque is what is also fueling the exuberance for it. But expect Govt to tighten the reins on the cryptocurrencis. As I read, they offer opportunities for illicit activities of all kinds especially I would think money laundering
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby SeaGypsy » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 07:29:24

There's one big reason government is letting this ride, profits are taxable. If you own a bunch of Bitcoin, you can blow it on the black market ($1 gram cocaine for $50 etc) or cash it. The first option your value goes to criminals. The second, a good chunk of it goes to tax. A 1000% markup taxed at 30% is a 300% yield to the taxman. When the criminals cash their profits out- they leave a trail leading to their doorstep. Lots of fun for intelligence services.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby Revi » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 11:19:05

The Ethereum website is interesting. I guess it's a combo of a block chain and a kickstarter.

https://www.ethereum.org

It's going to be interesting watching what happens as our reserve currency falls apart to be replaced by this.

Hard to tell, but I guess it's another fiat currency. What is it backed by? What tells you that it can't be stolen? Who is guaranteeing us that it has value? I guess it has value because other people want it.

It's going to be interesting watching this. I am not ready to do anything with it just yet.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby vox_mundi » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 11:32:22

A Cryptocurrency Founder Sold All His Coins After 7,500% Rally

Charlie Lee, creator of the world’s fifth-biggest cryptocurrency, cashed in during a 75-fold rally this year.

The San Francisco-based software engineer whose litecoin was founded in 2011 sold and donated all of his holdings over the past few days, he said in a Reddit post. The disposal was aimed at preventing a “conflict of interest” when Lee makes comments on social media about the digital currency that could influence its price, he said.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby GHung » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 11:40:30

Bitcoin exchange goes bust after hack

A bitcoin exchange in South Korea has gone out of business after being hacked, highlighting the perils of trying to cash in on this year's stunning boom in digital currencies.

Seoul-based Youbit said it was filing for bankruptcy after cyber-thieves stole nearly a fifth of its clients' holdings in an attack Tuesday.

It's the second time this year that Youbit, which allows customers to trade bitcoin and other digital currencies, has been hit by hackers.

In April, thieves made off with 38 billion won ($35 million) in digital currencies. The company didn't say how much was taken in the latest heist or how exactly it happened. ....

http://money.cnn.com/2017/12/20/technol ... -stack-dom
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby evilgenius » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 12:25:49

Revi wrote:The Ethereum website is interesting. I guess it's a combo of a block chain and a kickstarter.

https://www.ethereum.org

It's going to be interesting watching what happens as our reserve currency falls apart to be replaced by this.

Hard to tell, but I guess it's another fiat currency. What is it backed by? What tells you that it can't be stolen? Who is guaranteeing us that it has value? I guess it has value because other people want it.

It's going to be interesting watching this. I am not ready to do anything with it just yet.


It's definitely not a fiat currency in the traditional sense. Today's fiat currencies are backed by the promises of the people who borrow money that they will pay it back. Fiat currencies are made out of the promises made which enable fractional reserve banking. The money supply of today's fiat currencies rises and falls according to the economic activity of people. People desire to get ahead so they borrow to invest in some kind of scheme to do so, be that a business or some other investment. The money supply is tied to that activity, not the activity of coin miners. Bitcoin is more like a gold standard currency. Currencies like that are good for monarchs. They aren't so good for thriving democracies. They don't provide a way for people to get ahead. They create imbalances which curtail that initiative by making money too valuable, seeing as how the supply of it cannot expand to match activity. They cause the choices over who will succeed to become political rather than based upon a person's word and their efforts.

That being said, Bitcoin makes for a good way to transfer from one currency to another, just like derivatives do. It could become a rival to derivatives. If so, then it has a lot further to go. At the current market cap of around 250 billion dollars it's fairly small for that task. I don't know how much more it will grow, but it could easily double and still not be large enough.

I get what you are saying, but calling it fiat simply because it comes 'out of thin air' is a misnomer. The value of everything is based upon what people perceive it to be. The faith of the people determines the value of everything, gold included. It doesn't matter if there is a limited supply of something. It matters whether the people perceive that thing that has a limited supply to have value. The blockchain is about providing enough security so that people won't lose faith. Beyond that, there is only what people fancy. Just remember that unlike real fiat currency there aren't any promises backing this up. There is only that security and pure belief. It can go away faster than it came.
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Re: Bitcoin & crypto?

Unread postby pstarr » Wed 20 Dec 2017, 12:32:23

Good explanation Evil. Perhaps folks like crypto because it doesn't come with built-in inflation, the way money creation at a Central Bank is?

Why/how is crypto a replacement for derivative?
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