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Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Cog » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 17:45:49

I will always take mother nature as the most fair arbiter of our fate. It can not be bribed, show favor, or otherwise monkey with the process. Anytime man is involved, there is always an attempt to bias the outcome in favor of those best connected to those in power. I agree with KJ. The state will have to kill me before I will willingly submit to the level of control that Ibon wants. The individual, not the state is the supreme good.
Last edited by Cog on Sun 16 Dec 2018, 17:48:27, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby onlooker » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 17:46:55

Individualusm is mal adaptive to the challenges the human race is now facing. Those who chose to go it alone will perish alone
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Cog » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 17:49:34

onlooker wrote:Individualusm is mal adaptive to the challenges the human race is now facing. Those who chose to go it alone will perish alone


Better to die than live as a slave to your state. Oh I forgot the citizens of your state are already slaves. Let your chains rest lightly.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 18:09:11

Ibon, independance of decision does not imply the isolated life of a hermit. Nor does it mean I want to live outside of a village, state, or country. I will comply with such common customs, laws, and regulations that I find reasonable. But when the fabric of civilization is eroding, I expect the various governments will meddle less and in fact fail to execute their required functions. One must be prepared to do more, to not lose what you have. Best have a gun if they don't enforce laws and provide security. Best be prepared to barter if currency becomes worthless. Best be prepared for the unexpected, in general.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 18:32:14

Cog wrote: The state will have to kill me before I will willingly submit to the level of control that Ibon wants.


Somewhere in here is some irony. I'll get to that further along.

First I didn't take a position. I do believe it is either the state or mother nature. Your position is not without merit actually since mother nature is external of human agency and I have long held the belief that the only chance we will ever manage any kind of self regulation as a society will come about through eating some humble pie delivered by mother nature. For a reason you also mentioned. Mother nature cannot be bribed or show favor. She is ruthlessly independent of human power structures and human morals. If humans will pull together one day in some form of a self regulating society they will achieve this either through a religious belief system or a secular government that submits to something external of human agency. Like the wrath of mother nature. Worship comes in here, submitting in reverence to something greater than man's inherent greed and hunger for power. That's a fair game isn't it? Agreeing to limit consumption or breeding to something external of human power structures might be considered fair especially if we go through a couple of generations of getting smacked around and ground down to say 10% of our current population. And become collectively humble enough to once again embrace a spiritual orientation.

Now to the irony. I gave the middle finger years ago to the world of commerce and to the whole consensus reality of materialism. I took my bag of nuts and came up here with 1.5 million acres of wilderness surrounding me to isolate myself from what I perceive as a degenerate material world. I am the child of an Anabaptist without the Jesus part. It was not hard for me to follow in the footsteps of my fathers legacy seeing modern industrialization as a sin and choosing wilderness and agrarian surroundings. If anything I embody individualism and following my own creed and I don't need to make any Don Quixote proclamations that I would rather die than sacrifice my individualism over to the state. The irony is that KJ and Cog, deeply embedded in the system they hate, need to make these proclamations. The reason is clear. Neither of you have gotten even to first base in emancipating yourselves from the state that you despise. That is the irony. The ones that bark the loudest about individualism are sometimes the ones least actualized in having achieved it.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Cog » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 18:44:46

But Ibon from your self-imposed exile you feel it incumbent on yourself to tell the rest of us how to live in a modern industrialized nation. That we should sacrifice our individuality so that the state can impose conditions on us. I would have thought you would have given up on such foolish notions by now.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 19:07:55

Cog wrote:But Ibon from your self-imposed exile you feel it incumbent on yourself to tell the rest of us how to live in a modern industrialized nation. That we should sacrifice our individuality so that the state can impose conditions on us. I would have thought you would have given up on such foolish notions by now.


The love you feel for Jesus does not feel like a sacrifice to you does it?

If that reverence one day can be channeled toward our mother earth we will be truly free individuals. The state in its function would serve basically this spiritual orientation and be limited to a set of regulations that puts mother nature first in the service of mankind. Any action that does not pay homage with reverence to our mother earth would be constrained. It's fair because everyone would understand that these regulations are to maintain balance within carrying capacity. We wouldn't call it carrying capacity by the way. We would have some spiritual term for this.

This all comes after suffering the calamities of imbalances that we ourselves bring about. What you said Cog, letting mother nature be the arbiter.

By the way, the state today as it stands is corrupt. I would never advocate today surrendering your individuality over to the state. I didn't do it, why would I advocate you to?

I am musing here over a time up ahead when consequences humble us collectively. It's not unlike christian rapture except for fuck that part about being a chosen one and rising up to heaven. I am fully committed to seeing heaven realized here on earth for our descendants. Just a few billion less descendants.

Nothing we discuss here regarding climate change, peak oil, politics, economy, etc. has any meaning whats so ever before we experience a spiritual awakening through consequences. It's all noise in the meantime.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby GHung » Sun 16 Dec 2018, 20:13:30

Cog wrote: ..........

Better to die than live as a slave to your state. Oh I forgot the citizens of your state are already slaves. Let your chains rest lightly.


Right, Coggo. When they fly over your place with their National Guard choppers and see anything they don't like, you'll know you aren't as free as you think. Happens here all the time, and the chairman of the "Freedom Caucus" thinks that's just fine. And they have high res pictures of every square inch of your place. The tax man thinks that's just fine. Your financial transactions??

How many lists are you on, Coggo?
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 00:23:21

Ibon wrote:If that reverence one day can be channeled toward our mother earth we will be truly free individuals. The state in its function would serve basically this spiritual orientation and be limited to a set of regulations that puts mother nature first in the service of mankind. Any action that does not pay homage with reverence to our mother earth would be constrained. It's fair because everyone would understand that these regulations are to maintain balance within carrying capacity. We wouldn't call it carrying capacity by the way. We would have some spiritual term for this.


I will keep this short on this occasion as it is late.

At no time in the existence of the human species when the 'mother earth' was a worship object were the priests not raking off the top to serve themselves. This strange belief you have that human nature will change just because massive numbers die is not borne out by any portion of the historical record.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Cog » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 03:08:21

Seems a lot of historical earth worshippers involved themselves in human sacrifice. Druids, Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans. I guess if you are the one holding the knife it's not a bad gig.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 07:58:59

Cog wrote:Seems a lot of historical earth worshippers involved themselves in human sacrifice. Druids, Aztecs, Mayans, and Incans. I guess if you are the one holding the knife it's not a bad gig.


When the earth worshipers journey up here to our reserve I greet them with binoculars. We use knives to cut papayas.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 08:07:52

GASMON wrote:You're a little hypocritical there Ibon regarding giving the middle finger to the world of commerce, I seem to remember you writing a while ago about deciding or not to sell property you owned on the Florida coast, concerned (rightly) about sea level rise. Get out while the going is good you inferred back then. So I guess you sold them and put the money in the bank etc.


You know the biblical saying ... Render unto Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and unto God the things that are God's" Our operation here is engaged in commerce, we could not survive otherwise. Even nuns in the monastery will sell you cookies through a grated window! So I make no claims to have freed myself of engagement. The rewards of commerce have provided me the opportunity to prioritize investing in mother nature instead of say some illusion of secure retirement.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby onlooker » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 08:19:47

We are all caught one way or the other in the vice grip of human overshoot and world civilization. By relying on it and/or being caught up in its denouement. What I find most refreshing about being on this site is that participants here have given up on the false illusion or hope that we can maintain any semblance of BAU for much longer. So, critiques of how people chose to live at this moment in time are pointless.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 08:30:43

As Onlooker points out the ecological crisis we are facing requires collective sacrifice and regulating and managing constraints if we want to reduce human suffering.

I recall how KJ proclaims that we must do everything possible to prevent the sufferings of billions dying. That he disparages halting fossil fuel production because it will result in the death of billions.

My first post on this current dialogue we are exploring mentioned that each of us in our own way is struggling to deal with the check mate of human overshoot.

We prefer to let nature be the arbiter as we perceive the state as a failed entity. And this at a time when managing the ecological crisis requires not only a strong nation state but also a global accord in managing consumption.

And this happening at a time when we see nations contracting toward nationalism and where populations are rejecting the strengthening of their own governments regulations.

Retreating toward Don Quixote individualism against over reach on the part of the state.

There are many inherent contradictions in the positions we take. This does define the check mate of human ecological overshoot.

As Tanada points out I take a position with little historical precedent to embracing the consequences of human overshoot as the forces necessary to awaken a spiritual renaissance in how we relate to our mother earth.

No more time to ponder this at the moment. I have to guide some guests in the forest. Guests having traveled far looking for that contact with mother nature.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Newfie » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 13:04:06

Nice view.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby KaiserJeep » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 15:49:00

For the record, I have no desire for a self-imposed exile on a volcanic mountaintop, however beautiful the locale. I partake of civilization and culture, surrounded by relatives and friends. I see my most important role as advisor and caregiver for the twin grandchildren, probably the one one adult in their lives with the most time to spend with them.

Enjoying nature is something I do with 1-3 friends and at least two 4WD vehicles, and a fishing pole. It is the one thing I will miss most about this most beautiful of states. Meanwhile we are presently remodeling several rooms of our house, and painting everything. It is surprisingly disruptive of the comfortable routine, I have lived in this house over half my life.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby GHung » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 16:22:23

KaiserJeep wrote: ......

I see my most important role as advisor and caregiver for the twin grandchildren, probably the one one adult in their lives with the most time to spend with them.
.........


Have you explained to them how they will become cyborgs in the future, and how they will be sacrificing their individuality to the Unimatrix? Better get that over with before they fully become 'people'.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 17 Dec 2018, 18:36:42

GASMON wrote:
Ibon wrote: Guests having traveled far looking for that contact with mother nature.


My contact with mother mature is about 15 minutes walk away I live just to the south of the photo.

Image
The walk (or bike ride) does me good, keeps me fit also. All you see here was over 100 years ago a cannel coal mining area with iron works and foundries where the golf course is today. The "billionaire" back then was Lord Crawford, who lived in Haigh Hall centre right. He gifted the house and land to the people of Wigan when the coal ran out & iron works moved elsewhere in the early 20th century. It's now a hotel / museum / country park & golf course.

Perhaps we do not have the variety of nature found up on Mount Volcan, but the area is light years away from the poet Blake's "Dark satanic mills" or the industrial deprivation George Orwell wrote about in his book "The road to Wigan Pier". Mother nature has claimed it back.

Gas


Pretty nice, this is what it looks like around here.
1200px-Green_Springs_Aerial.jpg
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