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Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Plantagenet » Mon 10 Dec 2018, 20:17:40

pstarr wrote:The sea level has gone up hundreds of feet since folks hiked over from Russia back during the last glacial maximum. ... Now a few centimeters millimeters per year . . . no big deal.


True enough.

But the rate of sea level rise isn't constant ....its accelerating.

And consider that it was very easy for subsistence hunter-gatherers at the end of the Ice Age to pack up their tents and walk a few miles inland and set the tents up again....its not so easy for us now to move Miami, New York, London, Venice, etc. etc. as they flood

And we can't easily replace the lowest-lying coastal regions of the agricultural lands of the Nile Delta, Ganges Delta, Mississippi Delta etc. as they flood either.

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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Mon 10 Dec 2018, 21:43:46

KaiserJeep wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm saving my family as best I can. The rest of you will have to fend for yourselves.


I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Tanada » Mon 10 Dec 2018, 23:11:22

Plantagenet wrote:And we can't easily replace the lowest-lying coastal regions of the agricultural lands of the Nile Delta, Ganges Delta, Mississippi Delta etc. as they flood either.

Cheers!


The preponderance of evidence strongly suggests that of we let the rivers flood and carry silt as they would be doing naturally the deltas of every major river system would rise at a pace matching sea level increase. The reason south Louisiana is subsiding to below sea level is simple, we have channelized the Mississippi all the way to the edge of the continental shelf. This causes the entire load of silt carried to be dropped off the edge down to the abyssal plain of the Gulf of Mexico instead of rebuilding the surface layer as happened before we messed with nature. By the same toke when the Aswan High Dam was completed the sediment load of the Nile was almost entirely captured behind the dam and the part that gets out now isn't enough to replenish the delta. this is causing subsidence issues and sea level rise has been very small off the coast of Egypt compared to some other locations.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 11 Dec 2018, 01:37:18

We don't, of course, know exactly how high or how fast sea level rise will go exactly, but estimates keep going up. And as posts here have tried to remind people repeatedly (apparently to no avail! :/ ), the latest understanding of how Antarctic ice sheets (and probably) others go once they really start to go is that it can be a much, much faster processes than even the best glaciologists imagined possible up to just a few years ago.

But of course, sea level rise is just one of the many very deadly effects of rapid global warming, so if you don't like slr, just pick any of the others as you prefer (as folks here know, the arrival and rapid spread of wet bulb temperatures above the survivable level is my 'favorite' :) :/ ).

But back a bit closer to the putative topic of the thread:

Piketty (and many others) in the Guardian propose a new model for Europe:

"four major European taxes, the tangible markers of this European solidarity.

These will apply to the profits of major firms, the top incomes (over €200,000 a year), the highest wealth owners (over €1m ) and carbon emissions (with a minimum price of €30 a tonne).

If it is fixed at 4% of GDP, as we propose, this budget could finance research, training and the European universities, an ambitious investment programme to transform our model of economic growth, the financing of the reception and integration of migrants, and the support of those involved in carrying out this transformation. It could also give some budgetary leeway to member states to reduce the regressive taxation that weighs on salaries or consumption."

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... -europeans

(thanks to sidd at asif for this one)

OK, you may now continue to howl and grown, and to mewl and puke, and whatever else it seem you all love to do here :) :) :)
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby longpig » Tue 11 Dec 2018, 03:53:31

Ibon wrote:
I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.


You may be selling yourself short, if you believe the opulence has made you useless get rid of it, give it to an organisation that is protecting rain forests then move on with your life from there.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby onlooker » Tue 11 Dec 2018, 04:39:35

longpig wrote:
Ibon wrote:
I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.


You may be selling yourself short, if you believe the opulence has made you useless get rid of it, give it to an organisation that is protecting rain forests then move on with your life from there.

Ibon, I think also, you are selling yourself short. You are being a good example to your daughters by the way you live and the things you value. It is not just about survival, it is about a life enriched by going on a more fulfilling and wholesome path. When things get rough, your daughters in turn wlll be good examples for others.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Tue 11 Dec 2018, 08:26:27

onlooker wrote:
longpig wrote:
Ibon wrote:
I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.


You may be selling yourself short, if you believe the opulence has made you useless get rid of it, give it to an organisation that is protecting rain forests then move on with your life from there.

Ibon, I think also, you are selling yourself short. You are being a good example to your daughters by the way you live and the things you value. It is not just about survival, it is about a life enriched by going on a more fulfilling and wholesome path. When things get rough, your daughters in turn wlll be good examples for others.


In terms of what I have done already as a parent yes they are prepared. That is not what I was referring to though. If we believe even 10% of what we write about in terms of the severity of consequences then there is nothing I can do to insure their survival. Having agrarian land and being out of debt and knowing how to grow a hill of beans is not worth the paper a dollar bill is printed on. Not to even mention digital wealth.

Survival moving forward is learned by moving through the hardships that are coming. Not what a parent leaves behind. If it makes you feel good as a father to believe that you are somehow insuring the survival of your progeny then fine, rest in peace.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 12 Dec 2018, 11:35:06

Well put, Ibon.

I have no illusions that I can teach my adult daughter anything now that will help her (or anyone else) survive beyond others the multiple levels of sh!tstorms that are upon us. Not that survivalism has ever been much of my thing anyway. She has allied herself with those at and near the bottom of society who are DYI-ers and part of the 'sharing economy,' but even there she is not uncritical of it. She is in a better position now to see whatever she needs to do to have fulfilling time for whatever life is left for her.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 12 Dec 2018, 12:52:39

In support of Dohboi's contention that billionaires are a leading cause of climate change, the DCNF (Daily Caller News Foundation) recently surveyed a group of big corporations and billionaires who back the Paris Climate Accords to see if they would be willing to support a ban on private jet travel to help reduce CO2 emissions and mitigate climate change.

paris-climate-accord-backers-private-jets

Most said no.

Just like the Ds, the ultra-rich and corporations mostly SAY they believe in global warming and support the Paris Climate Accords, but for the most part are unwilling to actually do anything about it.

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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby onlooker » Wed 12 Dec 2018, 18:26:06

Industrial civilization spewing CO2 into the atmosphere is the leading cause of CC. It is just that some benefit more than others from these circumstances. And Billionaires benefit the most I guess
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 10:54:18

Good points, P and o.

I think it is also part of the psychological DNA of most billionaires (and of the 'markets'...) to be relatively short term thinkers, perhaps with the assumption that we can't know what the future will hold, and the (not uncommon) assumption that the magic of science will always come to the rescue.

But mostly they assume that their wealth will mostly protect them and theirs from the worst consequences of CC. ...And of course with the strong implicit (usually) message: Screw the rest of humanity and life on the planet!
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 13:44:52

dohboi wrote:Thanks, Ibon, GHung and onlooker for interesting and entertaining contributions to the thread.

For the record, I do not own a car, and all of our electricity comes from wind. But yes, we are all pretty much locked in a system that forces us all to participate in the destruction of the living planet. (Was there some point in there?)


Where is your retirement money invested.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Newfie » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 13:47:04

Ibon wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm saving my family as best I can. The rest of you will have to fend for yourselves.


I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.



Yeah, got that t-shirt. :(
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby GHung » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 14:43:58

Newfie wrote:
Ibon wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm saving my family as best I can. The rest of you will have to fend for yourselves.


I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.



Yeah, got that t-shirt. :(


C'mon guys. They need your wisdom. And I remind them that life has no guarantees and that they aren't entitled to the lifestyles they may prefer. It's all a gift of current conditions and culture. It goes to mindset and refusing to become complacent. In short, don't ignore the signs that are all around, and be prepared for change. Develop skills that may not seem pertinent to a 21st century lifestyle. When change comes, utilize those skills. Be ready to offer and accept help when there's the need, and avoid helplessness, hopelessness and blame.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Ibon » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 15:09:00

GHung wrote:
Newfie wrote:
Ibon wrote:
KaiserJeep wrote:I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm saving my family as best I can. The rest of you will have to fend for yourselves.


I have little or no role to play in the survival of my two daughters. I am quite obsolete and irrelevant to their survival for I am a product of baby boomer opulence. Nothing really there to offer them for survival.



Yeah, got that t-shirt. :(


C'mon guys. They need your wisdom. And I remind them that life has no guarantees and that they aren't entitled to the lifestyles they may prefer. It's all a gift of current conditions and culture. It goes to mindset and refusing to become complacent. In short, don't ignore the signs that are all around, and be prepared for change. Develop skills that may not seem pertinent to a 21st century lifestyle. When change comes, utilize those skills. Be ready to offer and accept help when there's the need, and avoid helplessness, hopelessness and blame.


That is the wisdom I have passed on. The narrative is all in order Ghung but that is not the issue. So yeah, they may have a head start over many others because of this wisdom shared. But then that is just comparing them to the clueless. Is that really the relevant goal post? I don't think so.

So yeah, understanding the narrative may enable them to make wise choices. In that sense I have done my part as a parent to pass on wisdom.

My point is this. The narrative doesn't hone. Life experiences do. And in the life experiences my daughters will have there is nothing I can contribute for my only point of reference is baby boomer opulence. Their most relevant teacher after I am gone will be external of human agency.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Outcast_Searcher » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 15:15:14

GHung wrote:C'mon guys. They need your wisdom. And I remind them that life has no guarantees and that they aren't entitled to the lifestyles they may prefer. It's all a gift of current conditions and culture. It goes to mindset and refusing to become complacent. In short, don't ignore the signs that are all around, and be prepared for change. Develop skills that may not seem pertinent to a 21st century lifestyle. When change comes, utilize those skills. Be ready to offer and accept help when there's the need, and avoid helplessness, hopelessness and blame.

And a solid work ethic would be good. But who has time for that, with such wonderful phones (with games!) to play with all the time?

People learn by example. Re things like frugality, perspective, etc., where is that example coming from?

If the baby boomers didn't have it (I did -- from my depression era parents, and lots and lots of work, to give me perspective), then Millennials do? From what? Avadado toast, selfies, and $10 lattes from Starbucks? Their aforementioned phones? Somehow, I don't think so -- at least not as a meaningful percentage.

When I went to college, I was out-competing pretty much everyone, because I knew damn well I wasn't going to do menial, boring, low paying work all my life. (5ish years of that, was plenty). These days, when you can't even find kids to, say, mow the lawn, since their allowance lets them buy the video games, etc. they want, just where is that perspective coming from? I'm not saying in every case, but say, a good 90% of the cases.
Given the track record of the perma-doomer blogs, I wouldn't bet a fast crash doomer's money on their predictions.
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby dohboi » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 18:20:48

Newf, I wasn't happy with where it was invested, so I'm in the process of pulling it out. But it's awfully small potatoes compared to the billionaires we are discussing.

But if your point, like KJ's, is that we are all trapped in a system that pretty much forces us to take part in the destruction of the planet...yep, that's the case. But pennies are not equal to $billions, unless my maths have utterly failed me! :)
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby onlooker » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 20:36:59

Wow, Gasmon bull's eye. Fact is Kaiser is right at least 5 billion of us need the energy and technologies that FF provide and want the lifestyle FF make possible.
The bitter irony is that FF are in the process of changing the climate regime of this planet to one that will almost certainly be unsuitable for most higher life forms especially mammals like us. And that unless some miraculous energy source exists we are unaware of, FF were a 1 time opportunity as they exist in limited quantity in timeframes pertinent to mankind
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Re: Billionaires = Leading Cause of CC

Unread postby Cog » Thu 13 Dec 2018, 21:58:28

You do realize that mammals originated some 200 million years ago? Mammals have live through extinction level events, ice ages, global warming, and everything the planet could throw at them. I like our chances. Unlike the dinosaurs, mammals are very adaptable to changes in climate.
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