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Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby GHung » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 13:53:43

I never really bought into the idea that young couples make babies to take care of them in old age. People in their 20s generally think they will live forever. The Waltons had a lot of babies mainly because they had no birth control, no abortion, and, like most folks, they liked to screw. They took care of their old parents for a lot of reasons.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Tanada » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 14:00:32

GHung wrote:I never really bought into the idea that young couples make babies to take care of them in old age. People in their 20s generally think they will live forever. The Waltons had a lot of babies mainly because they had no birth control, no abortion, and, like most folks, they liked to screw. They took care of their old parents for a lot of reasons.


This may shock you, but having 10-12 kids takes more than a couple years in your 20's. Typically in no birth control high risk cultures baby production began around 16 (or younger) and continued until menopause or death, whichever came first. While a 20 something might plan to live forever by the time they are 30 the aches and pains of a labor lifestyle are self evident and the needs of their own parents are obvious.

That isn't to say Mr and Mrs generation Q sat down and calculated 'We need 12 kids to survive', but the net result worked out that way.
I should be able to change a diaper, plan an invasion, butcher a hog, design a building, write, balance accounts, build a wall, comfort the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone, solve equations, pitch manure, program a computer, cook, fight efficiently, die gallantly. Specialization is for insects.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 15:35:14

@Newfie,
I think, an origin of indian casts has rather "racist" background.
Different tribes living there, including Aryan ones didn't want to mix and yet they were somehow "sentenced" to live in one place.
The lowest cast was simply mixture of outcasts of other casts bundled together with members of weakest and irrelevant tribes.
Complex relations between casts have evolved gradually, just to give a stake in economy for involved tribes and maintain relative peace and harmony.
But this is my speculation based on very restricted knowledge, so it may be wrong.
In general Indians are to a certain degree colour coded:
The darker your skin, the lower your cast.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 15:57:43

Any such development is always going to be the result of a combination of factors.

It is pretty clear that relatively lighter skinned Indo-Aryan speakers (that's the linguistic term, used long before the racists misapplied it to blond northern Europeans) invaded India around 1000 bce, and doubtless as part of a strategy to control a much larger native darker population started to create more-or-less arbitrary distinctions...partly, no doubt, to divide and conquer.

The earliest Vedic texts don't make reference to the caste system, as far as we can tell, so it seems to have evolved over the centuries after the initial conquest (though interpretation of the relevant passages vary, as is true with pretty much every passage of the Rig Veda).

As one source puts it, in the earliest texts Castes or "Varnas, in principle, are not lineages, considered as pure and indisputable, but categories, thus inferring the precedence of conduct in determining a Varna instead of birth."

https://www.ancient.eu/article/1152/cas ... ent-india/

But how something comes about and why it persists for millennia are two related but distinct questions.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 17:07:39

ralfy wrote:Likely not, as there is no surplus.


What world are you living in? Nice attempt to derail a thread.

onlooker wrote:If one looks at Scandinavian countries they consistently rank very high in terms of "happiness" criteria.


Don't buy into the hype.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby asg70 » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 17:32:04

Just to extend on the OP, what I'm proposing is that just as Gaia theory suggests that the planet functions like one collective organism with its own immune system response, that an entire species may also have a self-regulating system, a biological invisibile-hand as it were, that is triggered during periods of overpopulation during extended surplus. It's possible, perhaps, that the lowering sperm counts aren't just because of things like soy and phthalates but that some mysterious epigenetic trigger is taking place. There are a lot of studies about genetic memory lately, that certain kinds of environmental stressors imprint themselves into genes that then get passed along from generation to generation. This could be what is causing male feminization and autism and more masculine female behavior. It's something that is sort of happening on its own without any of us really being conscious about it, but it is ultimately a response to changes in the environment. There is less of a need for reproduction and so men grow increasingly weak and impotent. And with less children, women need to be part of the workforce, less nurturing and more selfish. So sexual dimorphism collapses and we sort of implode towards an androgynous gray area. You can see this sort of dystopic story play itself out in the movie Zardoz, where society became matriarchal. Once immortality is attained, humanity sort of becomes asexual. People become listless and devoid of passion or motivation. Is it any wonder that a movie like 300 was successful...because it offers a nostalgia for the brutal hypermasculinity of rippling pecs of the Spartans?

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 17:37:53

EnergyUnlimited wrote:@Newfie,
I think, an origin of indian casts has rather "racist" background.
Different tribes living there, including Aryan ones didn't want to mix and yet they were somehow "sentenced" to live in one place.
The lowest cast was simply mixture of outcasts of other casts bundled together with members of weakest and irrelevant tribes.
Complex relations between casts have evolved gradually, just to give a stake in economy for involved tribes and maintain relative peace and harmony.
But this is my speculation based on very restricted knowledge, so it may be wrong.
In general Indians are to a certain degree colour coded:
The darker your skin, the lower your cast.


What you say is likely true as to the origins. But the way it evolved it also addressed another need. The original split then evolved to address an additional problem.

I don’t see our views as exclusive, but rather that you provided some deeper historical context.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 17:52:18

asg70 wrote: It's possible, perhaps, that the lowering sperm counts aren't just because of things like soy and phthalates but that some mysterious epigenetic trigger is taking place. There are a lot of studies about genetic memory lately, that certain kinds of environmental stressors imprint themselves into genes that then get passed along from generation to generation. This could be what is causing male feminization and autism and more masculine female behavior. It's something that is sort of happening on its own without any of us really being conscious about it, but it is ultimately a response to changes in the environment. There is less of a need for reproduction and so men grow increasingly weak and impotent. And with less children, women need to be part of the workforce, less nurturing and more selfish. So sexual dimorphism collapses and we sort of implode towards an androgynous gray area.


I suppose its possible, but I don't think there is any evidence that supports your idea of a "mysterious" sort of genetic memory causing low sperm counts, autism, and a grab bag of other psycho-medical effects.

The simplest and most obvious medical explanation for these medical conditions is that they are caused by drug use and urban pollution and real physical things like that.

Looking just at sperm counts, there is a lot of medical evidence that shows that sperm counts are affected by drugs and pollution. This area is under active study now. A Danish study in 2015 found men who smoked marijuana, for instance, had reduced sperm counts. A subsequent study showed THC---the psychoactive chemical in marijuana---had negative effects on the sperm resulting in reduced motility and genetic damage. A more recent Harvard study seem to contradict the Danish study. Cocaine use also seems to damage sperm. Stress damages sperm. Even higher temperatures (global warming) can damage sperm

sperm-dna-damage-learn-about-your-sperm

I'm not denying that its possible that there is some kind of genetic memory or metaphysical invisible hand operating in human biology. But (1) I've seen no scientific evidence supporting the idea and (2) there is scientific evidence that these medical problems actually do have real, physical causes.

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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Tue 09 Jul 2019, 19:37:19

This might not rise to the level of population that people above were talking about, but the first culture to evolve relatively (to hunter-gatherer tribes and early agrarian villages) large settlements...of up to 40,000 inhabitants, the largest in the world at that time, was the Cucuteni-Tripolye (or Trupillya) which lasted nearly 3000 years with little change in the areas just north and west of the Black Sea (present day Moldavia, Ukraine and beyond).

...Cucuteni–Trypillia culture... was still (even in its later phases) very much an egalitarian society...

Like other Neolithic societies, the Cucuteni–Trypillia culture had almost no division of labor. Although this culture's settlements sometimes grew to become the largest on Earth at the time (up to 15,000 people in the largest)[31], there is no evidence that has been discovered of labour specialisation. Every household probably had members of the extended family who would work in the fields to raise crops, go to the woods to hunt game and bring back firewood, work by the river to bring back clay or fish and all of the other duties that would be needed to survive. Contrary to popular belief, the Neolithic people experienced considerable abundance of food and other resources.

Since every household was almost entirely self-sufficient, there was very little need for trade.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cucuteni% ... ia_culture
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby careinke » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 01:34:30

Plantagenet wrote:
Humans don't seem to have this hard-wired need for space.


Well I certainly seem to be hardwired for space. Just Sayin.... :roll:
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 02:58:34

@asg70,
I concurr with Plant, there is no evidence for what you say and there is an evidence for other explanations.
I would add, that the ills you are talking about are disproportionally affecting relatively moderately populated West and (to a degree) also Japan.
Less advanced nations are still full of masculine vigor.
My take on the subject is that transfer of power to females (women rights etc) is a sign of growing decadence in a given society.
There are examples from the past (and Romans are coming to mind in this context) that emancipation of women is soon followed by societal collapse.
Hence matriarchy is an exceedingly rare phenomenon, if exists or existed at all.
Women in general are not loyal to their tribes, given free hand they simply consume in excess and produce not much, on the top of it sexual debauchery is spreading, in later stages most of so called beta-males are loosing all stakes in society, while alphas are collecting harems and so ginocentic society is unstable and crashes at the end.
That can be also achieved by replacement of weedy, feminized men by more worthy and energetic (even if less intelligent) brands, a phenomenon which is increasingly seen in Europe (Arabs & Africans are making gains) or in America (where Mexicans are replacing usual white Americans).
For example in Sweden weedy and incapable white men are voted to go extinct by feminized government which promotes their replacement with more manly even if less intelligent African and Arab brands.
These are even quietly "licensed" to rape local Swedish women and next to nothing is done about it, like if affected women actually accept it.
Interesting demographic transition and example of "female betrayal of a tribe".
Nature hates weak, feminized men and simply disposes them off.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 05:52:58

While there is evidence as Plant says, and as he notes, that does not preclude ADDITIONAL factors. It may be there is no evidence because there have been no studies (we know of) or that the evidence is very difficult to observe.

In the long run it matters little, we see that something systemic is going wrong, there are things (Which Plant identified) that can be addressed as a start. There are additional fields worth study. And we are not addressing any of it in a meaningful way. So what does it matter that we know what is wrong if we are unwilling to take corrective actions?

But the unwillingness to take corrective action seems to to be a widely held human characteristic. Smoking, drug use, obesity, etc. it’s hard to see any corrective measure to that problem.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Ibon » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 07:59:47

Whether the decadence, indolence and cultural degradation is specific to drugs, pollution or digital addiction or whether it has a more wholistic not yet understood origin, the simple reality is that 7.5 billion and counting are collectively deeply locked into a pattern of behaviors that are far far away from dealing with the slow motion unfolding crisis at hand. Furthermore, the cultural trends are heading toward ever deeper digital escapism and narcissistic indulgences. At some point I think you arrive at some psychological place where you just let it go.

Of course we are all dependent on this civilization and its infrastructure so we are physically bound to this juggernaut and there is no real physical escape. Psychologically though you just lean into the correction that is upcoming. Focus then moves to your own personal integrity and responsibility and that of your loved ones.

The civilization ship is sinking. Your personal integrity is up to you to either sink with the ship or keep yourself afloat.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 09:30:57

How long till something like this infects humans? It sounds like it at least cuts down on (non-sexual) appetites, so maybe it would have a similar effect on consumerism?

https://www.sciencemag.org/news/2019/06 ... id=2898708

Cicadas high on fungus drugs won’t stop mating

In a scene fit for a horror film, paperclip-size cicadas sexually transmit a fungus attached to their bodies from one mate to another, sometimes losing parts of their abdomens along the way.

Now, new research reveals just how the fungus keeps those cicadas mating, Science News reports.

Massospora cicadina, which forms a spore that erupts through the insects’ abdomen, produces the hallucinogen psilocybin and the amphetamine cathinone.

These two drugs curb the critters’ appetites, letting them mate over and over again even after losing parts of their bodies, researchers report this week in Fungal Ecology. Scientists plan to next study how the fungus produces the drugs—and whether they influence other aspects of insects’ behavior.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 09:37:28

eu's rants seem to be getting even more bigoted and fact free. When was there a women's lib movement in late classical times?? Somehow I missed that. There were, of course, strong, powerful and (therefore) corrupt women on occasion throughout the history of Rome and the Empire. But generally it was amongst the most repressive societies for women in ancient history.

The 'barbarian' cultures to the north had much more egalitarian attitudes toward women. But that doesn't fit into his narrative, I guess. At what is considered to be the high point of ancient Greek civilization, homosexuality was very widely practiced.

It would be nice, if people are going to make sweeping claims about civilization and sexuality, that they not just make shit up based on their favorite biases.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 10:00:05

Another way to look at this would be from a religious perspective. Recently I’ve read the political divide within the USA has risen to the point where families are intervening when partners with opposite political affiliation desire to wed.

Perhaps some within the population who are deeply aligned with this party or that are simply so “wedded” to their political orientation that their drive is totally devoted to that pursuit. OR perhaps their political drive exists merely because they have no better, more fulfilling reason for being.

For example I ran across some “climate change activists. These were folks who were putting considerable time and effort into organizing a movement, to the extent of being full time activities. When I got talking to them (happened in a couple of occasions) I quickly got the idea they really didn’t understand the mechanics of issue. Then in probing their reason for involvement I got the idea that they were “activists” (Polysci) types first, they then looked for some cause to attach to.

So if their is something to my theory it runs along these lines. We have a lot of folks in the USA (Western culture) who have precious little to do. They don’t have, nor have reasonable expectations of, traditional careers. Yet they are young and energetic and need some way to express themselves and contribute to the tribe. Those methods open to them are generally of low pay and not secure. While I used the example of “activism” it probably extend far beyond that to the much touted flexible/sharing economy where folks have to scrape and scrounge for income and housing. Coming back to religion, because their lifestyle is so fraught with insecurity the desperately need something of permanence, so they attach to some movement or cause with religious fervor; be it sexual orientation, fetal rights, or whatever.

I think that kind of life style, with no security and ephemeral personal connections, is very depressing. And far from any utopia. But may explain SOME of the behavior being discussed.

I doubt there is any singular cause.

PS: If you have t guessed I’m bored. Sitting in a McDonalds for 5 hrs. waiting for the promised 1/2 hour repair in our car.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby dohboi » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 10:17:17

" I’m bored "

Maybe you need to attach yourself to a cause?? :)
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Plantagenet » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 11:30:12

careinke wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Humans don't seem to have this hard-wired need for space.


Well I certainly seem to be hardwired for space. Just Sayin.... :roll:


OH....me too. I agree with you 100%. I go to great lengths to avoid crowds.

But sociologists can find lots of examples of extremely crowded living conditions where humans seem to do just fine. Ships and submarines, high rise apartment buildings....things like that. When I did the Camino de Santiago the hostels for the pilgrims were ridiculously crowded.....double and even triple bunk beds crammed into by the dozens into huge rooms, so you might have a hundred people sleeping in a single large room. And yet people voluntarily live like that for months, with no obvious mental breakdowns occurring.

In silicon valley young tech workers are now paying $1200 month for a bunk bed in a shared bedroom. Its not for me....but clearly people are capable of living in crowded conditions and functioning at high levels.

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silicon-valley-1200-a-month-gets-you-a-bunk-bed-amid-housing-crunch

Cheers!
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby Newfie » Wed 10 Jul 2019, 12:48:24

Newfoundland, same size as PA, (not including Labrador) 500,000 vs. 13 million. And PA has a lot of open land. Half of them live in the St Johns metro area. I don’t feel lonely here, about right I’d say.
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Re: Are We Running the Mouse Utopia Experiment?

Unread postby EnergyUnlimited » Thu 11 Jul 2019, 03:30:44

Newfie wrote:Another way to look at this would be from a religious perspective. Recently I’ve read the political divide within the USA has risen to the point where families are intervening when partners with opposite political affiliation desire to wed.

I have red stories telling that families in US are increasingly intervening when their *sons* are attempting to wed whoever.

"Don't do it my son, it can only ruin your life. You will end up with $$$$$$$ of child maintenance and alimony bills and go to prison should you not have enough money to pay it. On the top of it you will loose all of your property in the process. Just don't do it, don't be stupid.
And if you really want a wife, nearest suitable candidate lives 10000 miles away. Once you have married her, stay there and never come back to US".
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