[Lore]

It's a combination of all the above. Having access to power gives impetuous to use it.

Then why isn't every driver of an 18 Wheeler hauling gasoline crashing them into skyscrapers and blowing them up? If you want a really gruesome example why isn't President Obama using Nukes on Isis? After all he has access to the ability, why doesn't he have the impetus to use it?

Simple, in both cases a rational human being understands the consequences of those actions far outweigh any potential benefit.

I wasn't aware that an 18 wheeler's purpose was considered to be a weapon? As far as nukes, there are all kinds of people on each side that owns them and that would just love to try them out. Only a thread of sanity keeps a lid on them.

There are only two reasons for a gun, to kill and to practice how to kill

[Outcast_Searcher]

There are only two reasons for a gun, to kill and to practice how to kill

So in your mind is self defense EVER justifiable, even in your own home? If an axe murderer came at your mom with an axe, would you try to defend her, or defer to Miss Manners?

[Lore]

It's a combination of all the above. Having access to power gives impetuous to use it.

Then why isn't every driver of an 18 Wheeler hauling gasoline crashing them into skyscrapers and blowing them up? If you want a really gruesome example why isn't President Obama using Nukes on Isis? After all he has access to the ability, why doesn't he have the impetus to use it?

Simple, in both cases a rational human being understands the consequences of those actions far outweigh any potential benefit.

I wasn't aware that an 18 wheeler's purpose was considered to be a weapon? As far as nukes, there are all kinds of people on each side that owns them and that would just love to try them out. Only a thread of sanity keeps a lid on them.

There are only two reasons for a gun, to kill and to practice how to kill

So in your mind is self defense EVER justifiable, even in your own home? If an axe murderer came at your mom with an axe, would you try to defend her, or defer to Miss Manners?

No, I didn't say that.

[KaiserJeep]

Knowing the fond beliefs of those that frequent this Forum, let us re-phrase that: Burning FF's causes Climate Change which reduces the temperature in Chicago which causes an increase in the murder rate.



You just can't beat smoking gun evidence like that. It's all them GHG's.

[Cog]

Conceal carry has been legal in Chicago and the greater state of Illinois since Jan 2014.

Just so you know.

[Sixstrings]

http://www.theonion.com/graphic/georgia-adds-swastika-middle-finger-to-state-flag-8998
Georgia Adds Swastika, Middle Finger To State Flag

Lol, the onion:

South Postpones Rising Again For Yet Another Year

HUNTSVILLE, AL–For the 135th straight year since Gen. Robert E. Lee's surrender at Appomattox, representatives for the South announced Monday that the region has postponed plans to rise again.

"Make no mistake, the South shall rise again," said Knox Pritchard, president of the Huntsville-based Alliance Of Confederate States. "But we're just not quite ready to do it now. Hopefully, we'll be able to rise again real soon, maybe even in 2001."

Pritchard's fellow Southerners shared his confidence.

"Yes, sir. The South will rise again, and when it does, I'll be right up front waving the Stars and Bars," said Dock Mullins of Decatur, GA. "But first, I gotta get my truck fixed and get that rusty old stove out of my yard."

"Lord willing, and the creek don't rise, we gonna rise again," said Sumter, SC, radiator technician Hap Slidell, who describes himself as "Southern by the grace of God." "I don't know exactly when we're gonna do it, but one of these days, we're gonna show them Yankees how it's done."

"Save your Confederate dollars," Slidell added. "You can bet on that."

The Deep South states of Alabama, Georgia, Mississippi, South Carolina, Louisiana, and Tennessee consistently rank at the bottom of the nation in a wide variety of statistical categories, including literacy, infant mortality, hospital beds, toilet-paper sales, and shoe usage. Even so, some experts believe the region could be poised for a renaissance.

...

"The way things stand, things in the Deep South almost have to get better. Otherwise, the people who live there will devolve into preverbal, overall-wearing sub-morons within a century," said Professor Dennis Lassiter of Princeton University. "Either Southerners will start improving themselves, or they'll be sold to middle-class Asians as pets."
http://www.theonion.com/article/south-postpones-rising-again-for-yet-another-year-377

Real truth is that the South isn't that bad. The northern rust belt is the rust belt, in large part, because jobs and population went south.

Still more work to do, though. It's a bit like Russia's problem -- the South just needs more progressives, would be better off for it.

A culture needs progressives. It's more fun, and interesting, anyway. More South by Southwest festivals, fewer right wing talk radio and gun shows.

Just to argue this other side of the coin though, in defense of the Red States and rednecks and country folk -- our entire US military is pretty much all red state people. Red state people have won every war our country has ever had starting with the revolution. Those backwoods kentucky riflemen. So there's one thing about gun culture anyhow, we've sure got the best soldiers in the world and that can come in handy in a pinch.

There's texan ben hodges out in europe, there's a tennessee japanese american in charge of the pacific.

When they're defending America, they're some of the best Americans, without them we wouldn't have a country at all.

[KaiserJeep]

Conceal carry has been legal in Chicago and the greater state of Illinois since Jan 2014.

Just so you know.

It's still true, because the "Tale of Two Cities" stats were published in 2013.

http://gunfreezone.net/wordpress/index.php/2013/03/06/a-tale-of-two-cities-chicago-vs-houston/

BTW, has anybody measured the crime rates in Chicago/Illinois after January 2014? Increase, decrease, or the same?

Edit: The answer is: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/aug/24/chicago-crime-rate-drops-as-concealed-carry-gun-pe/?page=all

[PrestonSturges]

I'm reading Karen Horney, a prominent psychoanalyst of the 1940s and she's discussing the "Vindictive Aggressive" personality, which is pretty much the modern racist:

No regard for other people
Demands immunity from criticism
Violent rage
Accumulates grudges as if they are treasures
Permanent feelings of being abused, permanent vindictiveness
Very competitive, but may or may not accomplish anything
Obsessed with seeing other people fail, will cut off his nose to spite his face
Dreams of glory, believes he has "extraordinary attributes," and "godlike self-sufficiency"
Shitty childhood that turns into "insatiable pride."
Too proud to ask for help, can't accept help graciously
Relies on intellectual powers, which can be imaginary
"Militant rightness," need to punish and intimidate others
Demands immunity from rules that apply to other people
Pride in honesty, justice, fairness
Constant efforts to frustrate other peoples hopes and plans
Intimidate anyone that complains
Furious bitter envy of nearly anyone for nearly any reason
Desperate need to be part of a group

[Sixstrings]

I'm sure glad we keep the means of death and destruction away from irrational people.

Agreed.

I've got 2nd amendment general views, but then if we're talking about guns I just have my own personal cultural views. Guns are just trouble. Open the newspaper.. any of day of the week.. and read about how much trouble they are.

We've just had SO MANY high profile incidents, over recent years, really Obama is right it's sad he has to give this same speech 2 - 4 times a year. Before charleston, there was that biker motorcycle gang horror in Texas. Just a massive shootout and brawl. It all started when one biker gang guy ran over a rival's foot. Police had to come in, bikers shooting at the cops, then the cops had to open fire.

All around -- whether it's in ghettos or it's bikers or it's "crazy white teenagers" or it's George Zimmerman walking around being a self-appointed police officer (looking for trouble), guns are just trouble.

Things that don't make the news, about gun deaths, but open your newspaper and you'll see it every day: suicides. ACCIDENTS. And then law enforcement gunning people down, because they make a mistake and just think someone had a gun then it turns out to be a potato in their hand or a toy water gun.

And then just domestic disputes, people having a gun in the home for protection but then one night the couple is having a horrible fight and someone grabs the damn gun. Just open your newspaper, this is in there every day of the week pretty much.

Oh, another recent crazy case: a guy bought a rifle at walmart, perfectly legal, but he was a bit stupid with just how he carried it out of the store. Maybe he should have kept it in the bag, apparently he just held it a certain way but turns out he wasn't dangerous or anything, he just bought a rifle at the walmart.

But somebody called the police. Then they all swarm his apartment. The guy wound up shot dead, by police, and then later it really looks like he never did anything wrong.

There are two sides to this issue, I've argued both sides, but I do keep coming back to the fact that guns are just trouble all around!

[Sixstrings]

There are only two reasons for a gun, to kill and to practice how to kill

So in your mind is self defense EVER justifiable, even in your own home? If an axe murderer came at your mom with an axe, would you try to defend her, or defer to Miss Manners?

I won't speak for Lore, but perhaps he has the same view that I have.

Just that guns, in the aggregate, are a big liability and a whole lot of trouble compared with the small statistical chance that someone actually needs that gun. It seems to me, the statistical odds are far heavier on the other end, that having a gun is a just a big RISK all around.

Look at George Zimmerman. Did his gun really do any good for him? Hm?

His "self protection" obsession actually LED him into looking for trouble that wouldn't have been there otherwise. We all know the truth about Zimmerman, now, because after acquittal he wound up getting in trouble with the police over and over and then domestic violence incidents and on and on.

I'm sorry folks, you all have your views and I'm just saying my common sense personal view, guns are dangerous, when you consider the risk / benefits and weigh it all out.

If you've got kids in the home -- guns are just dangerous to have, and a risk. Unless you are DARN SURE you've got that thing locked up and nobody can ever get your key. But how many people can be so careful? It happens every day in America, a child in the home finds the gun and there's a tragedy.

About hunting, rural life -- I understand that's different -- plus, I can imagine if someone is living in the middle of the woods in some rural state or the wild lands of alaska, where there is no police to call that can get there in 3 minutes, then yeah you need some protection if you really are all alone in the wilderness.

So where are guns, such a problem, in the aggregate? In settled areas. Cities and suburbs.

There's got to be some middle ground. Heck, don't you guys realize that even back in the wild west days, there were some towns out on the frontier that just banned guns? Because guess what, guns are dangerous, if it gets to be too dangerous then of course the community has to get some order and protection and ban the thing that's so dangerous.

Now it's 2015, and we have biker gang / police shootouts in Texas.

[KaiserJeep]

Yet I just published a link that detailed how crime rates declined during 2014, the first year for concealed carry in Illinois/Chicago. The rates for burglary/robbery were down 20 percent, the rate of auto theft down 26 percent, and murder rates went to a 56 year low.

Illinois requires 16 hours of classroom instruction, and a $600 license fee. There is an administrative backup, the actual full impact of the law should be known by the end of 2016. Sure looks encouraging so far - with the citizens trained and the criminals denied (legal) guns.

[Sixstrings]

Yet I just published a link that detailed how crime rates declined during 2014, the first year for concealed carry in Illinois/Chicago. The rates for burglary/robbery were down 20 percent, the rate of auto theft down 26 percent, and murder rates went to a 56 year low.

I'll take your word for that. Data is your best argument, kaiser.

Especially not making too much about anecdotes. If it really is true that on the aggregate, overall crime is down nationwide to historic lows, since 1990. (although it may be up again, it's looking like, lately)

What do you think about about stop and frisk? To check people for non-permitted guns? I'm guessing both liberals AND nra types are against that. Yet it looks like what bloomberg was doing all those years, really did keep crime so low. Now they stopped the stop and frisk, and gun violence is way up.

I'm for stop and frisk, whatever bloomberg was doing, they should go back to that. It's an example where the overall public good and great safety benefit for everyone, outweighs the hassle / nuisance factor / slight loss of freedom.

Illinois requires 16 hours of classroom instruction, and a $600 license fee. There is an administrative backup, the actual full impact of the law should be known by the end of 2016. Sure looks encouraging so far - with the citizens trained and the criminals denied (legal) guns.

Well I would agree with that, but the reality is that the NRA that maybe you support (or people who have pro gun views like you do, support the nra) is really against ANY gun control at all. They just block it all and stop it all, Cog was telling me in the bernie thread how bernie has a F rating even though the guy voted 5 times for the nra and only one time against 10+ clip magazines.

I'd agree with the kind of laws like chicago has, that's all I'm talking about, just some more regulation is all.

Combine those chicago laws with stop and frisk, and most of the problem is solved.

And it sounds corny, but really there should be some kind of public education program. PSA's or something. Because apparently there are a lot of parents in this country that don't have any common sense.

It could help. Tax guns and use that money to fund required classes for people that want a gun.

Why would you guys be so against that? Why can't we just do somehting like that, require a class that people have to take, and maybe the instructor can tell if someone is clearly psychotic / maybe the mentally ill and criminal types or hot heads wouldn't bother or be able to show up for the class!

Cigarettes have warning labels, I think there should be a pamphlet included and taped to each gun that is sold. Sounds corny but these things really can help.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I'll take your word for that. Data is your best argument, kaiser.

Especially not making too much about anecdotes.

Yeah, because your previous post citing one incident (George Zimmerman re Travon Martin) is so much less anecdotal than looking at all of Chicago.

[Outcast_Searcher]

I'm reading Karen Horney, a prominent psychoanalyst of the 1940s and she's discussing the "Vindictive Aggressive" personality, which is pretty much the modern racist:

No regard for other people
Demands immunity from criticism
Violent rage
Accumulates grudges as if they are treasures
Permanent feelings of being abused, permanent vindictiveness
Very competitive, but may or may not accomplish anything
Obsessed with seeing other people fail, will cut off his nose to spite his face
Dreams of glory, believes he has "extraordinary attributes," and "godlike self-sufficiency"
Shitty childhood that turns into "insatiable pride."
Too proud to ask for help, can't accept help graciously
Relies on intellectual powers, which can be imaginary
"Militant rightness," need to punish and intimidate others
Demands immunity from rules that apply to other people
Pride in honesty, justice, fairness
Constant efforts to frustrate other peoples hopes and plans
Intimidate anyone that complains
Furious bitter envy of nearly anyone for nearly any reason
Desperate need to be part of a group

Irony is PS posting this list with no sense of irony, given the content of many of his recent posts on this very thread. (I'm not complaining, so please don't intimidate me).

[PrestonSturges]

Irony is PS posting this list with no sense of irony, given the content of many of his recent posts on this very thread. (I'm not complaining, so please don't intimidate me).

Yeah and you were trying to tell me I don't own guns. So you are going to go straight down another rabbit hole of fantasy and rage and lecturing me?

Hey all I did was prepare a list from yet another classic book, and again that's supposedly some sort of proof that there's something wrong with me. Because only crazy people read books?

See, you can't control yourself or stay on topic. You'll keep spewing random incoherent accusations, possibly for years.

[Sixstrings]

Irony is PS posting this list with no sense of irony, given the content of many of his recent posts on this very thread. (I'm not complaining, so please don't intimidate me).

Well that's a pretty good list, for anyone to be aware of and avoid.

Both far left and far right can match up to a lot of the things on that list. And a lot of that list looks like Russia too, like "demands immunity from criticism."

Everyone should be avoiding that kind of list, if it's on the left then don't do the "militant rightness" -- it's not okay just because it's for the planet. Etc. etc.

There's a LOT of anger out there, in general. There was all the tea party rabid anger, in years past.

Then, 99% populist left wing anger. And eco activists, so much anger, so much militancy, so toxic -- which is what I touched on earlier in this thread, especially about the internet, just how TOXIC the discussions can get. Nobody wants to seem wrong about anything. Everyone's afraid of being wrong, apparently. Everyone's afraid of "slippery slopes" and they're absolutist and can't ever give an inch to the other side.

Personally I love to be wrong, if I'm wrong then that means I learned something I did not know before.

I think the tone on things, how polarized and toxic all political discussions are now, should just be turned down a notch. There should be more compromise. This could become a problem from the left wing as well, a "bernie sanders" populist anger could go too far. Luckily he's a responsible kind of populist, he's tapping into a lot of anger but channeling that into something good.

And on the right, their leaders need to tone their own base down, when they get them too worked up. Like old John McCain in his town halls and how he would do the right thing and correct an angry old lady shouting "obama is a muslim."

edit: I've posted to much in here, but update on the flag issue..

corporate america is turning on the confederate flag, en masse. Google ads banning it, google stores, amazon.com, walmart, ebay, target, sears (I haven't been to a sears in 20 years lol, did they sell rebel flags?):

6 Companies Ban Confederate Flag Sales
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2015/06/23/retailers-ban-confederate-flags_n_7648614.html

Also just saw this, congress may take up gun control issue again, that failed after sandyhook:

Manchin, Toomey both interested in reviving gun control push

Though the effort is far from being fully formed, Toomey also said he’s looking for opportunities to reintroduce something related to combating gun violence.

“What I’m trying to figure out is there something that could get the support of the 60 votes that we would need in the Senate,” Toomey said. “Joe Manchin was and is a great partner and someone I will continue to work with and I’m open to exploring what is possible.”

He added that nothing was imminent “but if we stay at it I think we’ll find a way to make progress.”

If the two senators team up to tackle any facet of gun control, it would mark a significant shift in the political debate nearly a week after nine people were killed at a Bible study group in downtown Charleston, S.C.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/powerpost/wp/2015/06/23/manchin-toomey-both-interested-in-reviving-gun-control-push/

[PrestonSturges]

Another good classic book is Irvin Yalom's " The Theory And Practice of Group Psychotherapy," which should be required reading for managers. Anyway, he was pointing how dangerous it is to even comment on the operation of a system, without even trying to change it. Just commenting on how the system works is enough to get a person mobbed. He said it's a very powerful social taboo that people just take for granted, and only certain people like comedians get some immunity. But this taboo against pointing out obvious things is why so often there are cases of murder and child sex trafficing operating quite openly and everyone pretends to not notice without being told to keep quiet. And they'll even close ranks around the criminal and gang up on anyone that asks questions, not because they are part of the scheme, but because it's human instinct. Look at the Holocaust - everyone in Germany knew, but they did not "know" in the sense that they weren't comparing notes to figure out the big picture.

[Keith_McClary]

Look at the Holocaust - everyone in Germany knew, but they did not "know" in the sense that they weren't comparing notes to figure out the big picture.

Are we allowed Godwins but no 9/11 or Settlers?

[PrestonSturges]

Is there any history since the internet has been around about American forum posters going postal? I can recall the Unabomber was somewhat of a lobbyist before switching to actual terrorism to male his points. Brevik isn't American. Apparently the general form of American mass murderers is of very poor communication ability, mental health issues. Us intellects capable of hashing out arguments on a forum like this are not the same people doing the killing. Unless what a poster says is provocative to evil, how polite or otherwise posters are is irrelavent to this issue.

I tend to suspect people that are very polite have hitchhikers buried under their house.

[PrestonSturges]

Then, 99% populist left wing anger. And eco activists, so much anger, so much militancy, so toxic -- which is what I touched on earlier in this thread, especially about the internet, just how TOXIC the discussions can get. Nobody wants to seem wrong about anything. Everyone's afraid of being wrong, apparently. Everyone's afraid of "slippery slopes" and they're absolutist and can't ever give an inch to the other side.

The thing about the anti-GMO / vegan / gun confiscation crowd is that it's all the same people who look more numerous than they are because they just never shut up and they are in a continuous state of outrage over a different issue every day of the week. For what seems like every hundred of them, there are probably really five people.

There's lots of good psychology about that describing this fake morality, and everyone says that when you get down far enough to the people that are generally useless there is much yammering about "justice." Not for themselves, but supposedly for Indian farmers or other total strangers who would think these social justice warriors are fruitcakes. It has to be "justice" in a very abstract sense so they'll never have to do anything except scream at people who really don't care.