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Fossil Water Depletion, Groundwater Contamination, Saltwater Intrusion, & Permanent Subsidence


Much of the modern world’s agricultural productivity, industrial activity, and high degree of urbanization is dependent upon the pumping and exploitation of limited freshwater resources. In some regions the water that is being relied upon is so-called fossil water — that is, water that was deposited many millennia ago and is mostly not being replenished for whatever reasons, such as lack of rainfall or impermeable geologic layers like heavy clay or calcrete laid on top.

As these fossil water reserves are depleted, there is often nothing to replace them (the one notable exception being the possibility of desalination in some regions), with the eventuality often being large populations, industrial infrastructure, and farmland that is untenable in the regions in question, to be followed by mass migrations out of such regions.

Particularly notable regions that are dependent upon fossil water are the American Great Plains (the Ogallala Aquifer), northeastern Africa (the Nubian Sandstone Aquifer System), and central-southern Africa (the Kalahari Desert fossil aquifers).

The situation as regards to fossil water depletion in some regions is compounded by extensive development (and paving over) of aquifer-recharge areas in regions where rainfall is otherwise sufficient to replenish aquifers, and further so simply by unsustainable usage rates which draw down reserves.

As groundwater in regions with the possibility of recharge is pumped at unsustainable rates, though, what generally also occurs is ground subsidence. In plain language, the ground sinks due to the lack of support previously provided by groundwater that is no longer there. Subsidence in this context is notable because it leaves the ground and aquifer in question far less capable of storing water, due to compaction. In other words, excess groundwater pumping permanently removes the ability of many aquifers to store water, leaving total aquifer capacity far lower than previously, and thus contributing to the drying out of the region in question.

Going back to the issue of over-paving watersheds that have been developed, another issue that follows from this is the eventuality of large flood events (due to the lack of open ground-space to run down into), and thus further soil erosion which itself leaves the land in question less capable of holding and retaining water/moisture.

All of these above issues are themselves further compounded by saltwater intrusion in coastal regions due to the pumping of groundwater creating a vacuum-effect that draws nearby saltwater into the aquifers, and also due to ground subsidence, general sea level rise, and groundwater contamination in many regions, which is often the direct result of the industrial and agricultural activities that are themselves drawing the most water.

So what we have in the modern world, when we take a step back, is the convergence of growing problems of: fossil water depletion; the destruction of the ability of many aquifers to retain water due to over-pumping as the result of ground subsidence; saltwater intrusion of aquifers caused by over-pumping and sea level rise; widespread groundwater contamination due to industrial and agricultural activities; and ever growing population numbers and food/agricultural needs.

With that in mind, the following is a basic overview of where things stand on different issues.

First, here are a couple of basic facts:

  • More than 4 billion people around the world already experience extreme water scarcity at least 1 month every year.
  • More than 500 million people around the world already experience extreme water scarcity essentially year-round. This number is expected to increase significantly over the coming decades.
  • Well over half of the largest cities around the world now experience water scarcity occasionally.
  • Fresh-water demand is estimated to exceed demand by at least ~40% by 2030.
  • Deforestation and accompanying aridification and/or desertification are primary drivers of water scarcity in some regions due to decreasing atmospheric moisture and thus rainfall levels. This is largely driven by consumer demand for cheap meat and livestock-feed on the one hand, and by demand for timber products on the other. Other water-intensive crops play a part as well though, like cotton and various types of oil/tree-nut/fruit crops for instance.
  • With “higher” standards of living, water use increases exponentially as people switch from a low-resource lifestyle to one of profligate use and waste. People in the wealthier countries of the world are known to use 10-50 times more fresh-water on an annual basis than those in the poorest.
  • Over just the last century, more than half of the world’s wetlands and watersheds have been destroyed and no longer exist in any capacity. Unsurprisingly, this has resulted in the loss of a very large amount of biodiversity, and also of numerous fisheries. In the US and Europe the loss of historic wetlands over the last century is in the 80-95% range.
  • A large majority of the groundwater now being pumped up from aquifers is being used by agriculture and industry.
  • Many of the largest rivers of Asia could effectively be gone by as soon as the end of the century due to the current rapid melting of associated glaciers.

Overpumping, Ground Subsidence, & Saltwater Intrusion

The overpumping of freshwater from aquifers, as noted previously, is a direct cause of ground subsidence and saltwater intrusion in coastal areas. What wasn’t stated previously is that as aquifer levels are drawn down, the quality of the water being pumped is generally being lowered, with rising levels of salinity (via ground salts), and also rising levels of grit and contaminants also being observed.

Something else to note on that count is that as aquifers are diminished, the natural outflows of the region — springs, etc. — experience much reduced outflows, or simply cease to exist.

In relation to this, the aforementioned experience of ground subsidence results in sinking land, which increases the danger of flood events in addition to reducing the capacity of the aquifer in question to hold water. It’s notable, for instance, that in some of the land surrounding Houston, Texas, ground levels have dropped by as much as 9 feet in recent decades due to extensive groundwater pumping.

Despite all of this, resistance to a reduction in pumping rates is often high, with those involved in agriculture in particular often fighting hard to stop the imposition of such an approach.

Accompanying ground subsidence in coastal regions is often saltwater intrusion into the aquifers being pumped — thereby diminishing the quality of the water, and often demanding costly treatment processes to allow continued potability.

Generally speaking, freshwater pumping in coastal regions allows saltwater to flow further inland than is otherwise the case, as do agricultural drainage systems. Sea level rise itself does as well, of course, as do the storm surges that accompanying powerful storms. This is all especially true in coastal regions where the aquifers are highly porous — in parts of New Jersey and Florida, for instance.

Groundwater Contamination & Pollution

In addition to problems of sheer freshwater unavailability are the fast increasing problems of freshwater contamination. Groundwater contamination has become an increasingly common problem in recent decades as industrial and agricultural productivity levels have been brought to unsustainable levels.

While contamination that ultimately is the result of industrial and agricultural activities is the most common type, increasing urbanization is another, as population-dense regions are often unable to deal effectively with the waste products that result without expensive systems (which some regions can’t afford). Ineffective wastewater treatment facilities, landfills, and fueling stations, for instance, are often sources of groundwater contamination in urban regions. Some regions, it should be noted, feature groundwater with high levels of arsenic or fluoride regardless of human activity, and aquifer reliance in those regions is thus dangerous.

An example of a dangerous but common type of groundwater contaminant deriving from human activities is nitrates, which is generally the result of agricultural activities. Other, more dangerous, compounds are also common groundwater pollutants, including various types of solvents, PAHs, heavy metals, hydrocarbons, pesticides, herbicides, other artificial fertilizers, radioactive compounds, pharmaceuticals and their metabolites, and various types of persistent chemical pollution.

Before closing this section, I suppose that hydraulic fracturing (fracking) as a means of extracting fossil oil and gas reserves deserves a mention. While the practice itself does not inherently need to be a cause of groundwater contamination, in practice it often is due to the reality that it is often pursued carelessly and that e companies involved have a tendency to dissolve when problems arise (with those involved simply starting a new firm afterwords).

Loss Of Glaciers, Climate Change, Rising Temperatures, & Increasing Atmospheric Moisture

Accompanying the depletion and contamination of groundwater freshwater resources, the world’s above-ground freshwater resources — largely glaciers, winter snowpack, and high-altitude lakes — are rapidly disappearing as well in many parts of the world.

While the rapid melting of many glaciers in recent years has led to an increase in water availability in some regions — in particular in the parts of the world that ultimately source their freshwater from glaciers in South and Central Asia (via rivers originating there) — all that this means is that long-term supply is being compromised even faster than would otherwise be the case. As these glaciers disappear, there will be increased water scarcity affecting literally hundreds of millions to billions more people than is currently the case.

Also worth noting here, is that rising temperatures are themselves affecting freshwater supplies by increasing the rate of evaporation in many regions and thereby limiting the amount of surface water and the ability of aquifers to recharge. Accompanying this is the reality that as atmospheric moisture levels rise as a result, temperatures will continue rising even faster due to the reality that water vapor is itself a potent greenhouse gas.

39 Comments on "Fossil Water Depletion, Groundwater Contamination, Saltwater Intrusion, & Permanent Subsidence"

  1. penury on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 11:54 am 

    Simplify the article, “excess population results in failure of natural resources eventuating the demise of the excess human population.” Shorter version “too many humans”

  2. Duncan Idaho on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 1:09 pm 

    “too many humans”

    Yep, but we seem to go around that one——

  3. jef on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 1:13 pm 

    pen – even with less humans consuming finite resources at any rate ends up the same way.

  4. JH Wyoming on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 2:50 pm 

    “As groundwater in regions with the possibility of recharge is pumped at unsustainable rates, though, what generally also occurs is ground subsidence. In plain language, the ground sinks due to the lack of support previously provided by groundwater that is no longer there.”

    I find that a fascinating comment. Sure it’s true, but humankind never thinks very far ahead, and considering the problems that will occur once those water sources are gone, subsidence is only a problem if there was any way on the trajectory of water over-drainage occurring to ever consider those aquifers could be replenished.

    I will say this, humans must be extremely optimistic. They gobble up resources with reckless abandon with almost no thought whatsoever for how that will eventuate, presuming all will turn out just fine. That really is a psychotic perspective, which offers up an interesting question; Are humans as a species, mentally ill? And I don’t just mean our definition of mental illness, which usually includes Dr. visits and prescribed medicines, but I mean our whole species. It’s worth analyzing before all hell breaks loose, because what if the answer is Yes. Then policies could be written up to accommodate that condition.

  5. rockman on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 5:10 pm 

    JH – “They gobble up resources with reckless abandon with almost no thought whatsoever for how that will eventuate…” I get your point but might modify it a bit. Perhaps many do give it a thought. But even if they do the result is the same as with those that don’t: it is a very low priority…if a priority at all. The overwhelming priority for the vast majority is the same: the improvement of their lives and their close family members. As an example consider the obvious: only a completely insignificantly number of people in North America “care” about the condition of those in Africa. And by “care” I don’t mean just feeling bad but actually taking a meaningful proactive response. And that’s for those living today and not the yet born. Now narrow it down: how much are folks in Florida willing to reduce electricity consumption (or any other commodity) to help folks in Georgia lacking basic electrical service? I don’t think if there were a vote in FL tomorrow to send a portion of their grid to Georgia as many as even 10% would vote yes.

    Yes, the obvious: self-interest dominates such decisions. If it doesn’t control such decisions today with respect to cohabiters of the planet why should future generations be of any concern at all? Even on this website there are those that try to change their consumption pattern significantly. But there are those who are only willing to provide lip service.

  6. energy investor on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 6:56 pm 

    This article presumes that AGW will continue through solar cycles 24 and 25 (which it may do) but right now, our glaciers seem to be growing in length and depth. Also the snowfall in both poles is vastly higher than for many years.

    So let’s see if there are any straws to clutch at. What if the natural cycles recharge aquifers?

    It seems improbable given the length of time it takes to recharge them, but what if?

    To commit the unthinkable crime of discussing it, the solar scientists view the effects of a grand solar minimum (with few or no sunspots) to be colder temperatures, first in atmosphere then on land and then in the sea. Further, they predict increased cloud formation exacerbating cooling but also dramatically increasing the rains.

    The solar scientists seem to agree (even NASA and the Russians) that the current solar minimum will reach its depth in about 2030.

    IPCC funded scientists have for the last 35years adopted the theory that while the sun has driven global climate through the last 2.6 million years, it is human CO2 emissions that are driving it now. (for all I know they could be proven right, but perhaps not – they don’t seem able to explain the atmospheric pause?)

    You folks in the Northern hemisphere would know if your winter has been warmer or colder. Our Southern hemisphere summer in a maritime island climate has been very warm – due to sea themperatures remaining high. Yet this is just observations of “weather”.

    But, I suppose we will know by 2030 whether the IPCC theory is right about AGW. If they are, I cannot see much alternative to the depletion of quifers being a humanitarian disaster of some scale.

    But it could be a bigger disaster if the IPCC scientists are wrong and we have a repeat of mini ice age conditions, as at the Maunder Minimum.

    Given humans at 7.5 billion occupy so much of the globe, perhaps we need to be careful what we wish for.

  7. Sissyfuss on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 7:59 pm 

    Someone hit the troll EI between the eyes with the latest Keeling Curve readings and maybe he won’t entertain us with his cherry picked bs.

  8. Boat on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 8:14 pm 

    Ending trade of food would help with population and water depletion. Win, win.

  9. drwater on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 8:30 pm 

    “Subsidence in this context is notable because it leaves the ground and aquifer in question far less capable of storing water, due to compaction. In other words, excess groundwater pumping permanently removes the ability of many aquifers to store water, leaving total aquifer capacity far lower than previously, and thus contributing to the drying out of the region in question.”
    This is actually a common misconception. Subsidence occurs because of the one-time loss of water from clay interlayers, not the capacity of the sand and gravel aquifers. It is a one-time mining of water from the compressible clays, but does not reduce the capacity of the sand and gravel aquifers.

  10. GregT on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 8:50 pm 

    “Ending trade of food would help with population and water depletion. Win, win.”

    Win, win for whom Boat?

    “The massive shift in U.S. food production eastward to low-cost countries such as China over the last 20 years has resulted in a vast and complex supply chain that has the potential to endanger the health of American consumers, according to a world-renowned expert whose presence at Texas A&M University is part of a prestigious scholarly initiative.”

    “Roth’s six-year investigation of global food supply chains has resulted in revelations that may surprise and alarm most American consumers.”

    ““Almost a quarter of the average American’s food consumption is imported,” Roth says. “Consumers would be hard pressed to find processed foods without at least one ingredient from China.””

  11. energy investor on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 8:52 pm 


    Provide your reference and I will consider it among my “cherry picked bs”.

    I am happy to accept facts.

    If the facts are persuasive I will change my opinion. But right now, being called a troll just smacks of bullying.

  12. energy investor on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 9:36 pm 


    I accept CO2 readings at present are somewhere around 415 ppm.

    I accept that CO2 is a tiny greenhouse gas compared with water vapour.

    I accept the average of CO2 over the last 300 million years has probably been about 1,000 to 1,500ppm.

    I accept that there are ice core samples that show there has been 5,000ppm of atmospheric CO2 during the depths of an ice age.

    I accept that plants start dying when CO2 is below 200ppm.

    I accept that for many decades the Dutch have been pumping CO2 into their greenhouses to maximise plant growth (apparently it is great and multiplies growth rates)

    I accept that Al Gore is lying when he says CO2 levels are at the highest ever.

    But what I don’t know is why CO2 is the enemy of all mankind.

    Perhaps you can enlighten me?

    What is it about your own personal Keeling curve that I am ignoring?

    Now, I have a question for you.

    Why is it that the Russians, the Chinese, the Indians and the Pakistanis all want to join your attack on CO2 at the same time that their scientists tell them the world will reach the next grand solar minimum in 2030?

    Is that a coincidence or do you think they know something that you do not?

  13. makati1 on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 10:39 pm 

    Greg, most Americans have no idea where the stuff they eat and drink comes from, or what is in it. They never read labels. Food stuff produced in the Us is no more safe than from any other country. Probably less so as it is chemically and biologically stuffed with unnecessary additives. GMOs, antibiotics, chemical preservatives, coloring, etc.

    Read the label on a can of Chef Boyardee spaghetti and meatballs sometime. Over 50 ‘ingredients’.

  14. GregT on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 11:08 pm 

    “most Americans have no idea where the stuff they eat and drink comes from, or what is in it.”

    Most Canadians are no different MM.

    “Read the label on a can of Chef Boyardee spaghetti and meatballs sometime.”

    I’ve always avoided processed foods as much as possible, and I’ve never even had a can of Chef Boyardee anything in my hands, let alone in my home. I’m sure it tastes every bit as good as it sounds.

  15. GregT on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 11:18 pm 

    Most Canadians are no different ‘makati1’.

  16. MASTERMIND on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 11:20 pm 

    There are no socialist countries existing today. Socialism is not when the government does stuff. Socialism is the process of putting the means of production into the hands of the workers and social ownership of that property. The reason it doesn’t work in modern countries is because the US doesn’t want it to work. Why? Who knows. Could be fear of revolution. The point is; socialism is very often misinterpreted as something it isn’t. Canada isn’t socialist, Norway isn’t socialist, Venezuela isn’t socialist, the USSR wasn’t socialist(it was state capitalism). The only example of Socialism was France immediately after the revolution.

  17. makati1 on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 11:32 pm 

    Greg, I eat processed sometimes as it keeps on the shelf for years, thanks to the ‘ingredients’. How can you prep for the future without some ‘processed’ canned goods? If you use a lot of salt to preserve foods, it can be as bad as the other chemicals. Especially when you get older.

    Home canning is good but requires the necessary materials and skills to do so. Especially new flats for every canning. I also do that, and have since I was a kid, but I find it easier to just stock some commercial goods that have shelf lives of 4-5 years like tuna, salmon, sardines, etc. (Mostly only preserved with salt.) If you choose well, you can avoid items with the long list of additives. And, Ball canning jars cost $2+ each here.

    BTW: Yes Chef Boyardee is delicious. I can eat it right out of the can. The food industry is very good at making stuff that is not good for you, addictive. ^_^

  18. Cloggie on Mon, 9th Apr 2018 11:58 pm 

    There are no socialist countries existing today. Socialism is not when the government does stuff. Socialism is the process of putting the means of production into the hands of the workers and social ownership of that property. The reason it doesn’t work in modern countries is because the US doesn’t want it to work. Why? Who knows.

    Central planning doesn’t work since it sucks the life blood from a society. People must see return from their direct personal efforts. North-Korea is probably the last truly socialist country. It’s a joke.

    European social market economy is the best, for white people that is. It is the best system for the middle class, no beggars, no tent cities, everybody a home and food and health services.

    Now with mass immigration of third world parasites, promoted by (((marxist scumbags))) and US vassals, the system is blowing itself up and becomes gradually unaffordable.

    For that alone, “WW3 will be worth it”.

  19. MASTERMIND on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 12:57 am 


    Your birth rate is dropping fast. They have to import more people to keep your economy from going into a deflationary death spiral.

  20. MASTERMIND on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 1:00 am 


    If I was you I would move quickly. Once that natural gas is all gone. your country will turn into another Syria…They will be opening the flood gates with migrants to try to get their GDP up…

    Europe’s Biggest Natural Gas Producer Is Running Out of Fuel

  21. DerHundistlos on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 1:29 am 

    Energy Loser-

    Glaciers are growing? Amazing to me how people will tell out and out lies. Perhaps you need a visit to Glacier National Park. When the park was created some 100 years ago, over 150 thick, morphing ice sheets that gave the park its name were counted- glaciers that had existed for thousands of years. Fast forward 100 years and just 26 remain. The forests are now drier and disease ridden, leading to bigger wildfires. Based on current melt patterns, by 2030 or sooner, they will all be gone/

    But, I know, glaciers are growing except at Glacier Park, right?

  22. Kat C on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 3:23 am 

    Energy Investor since you are willing to accept facts check out these
    “In its 2011 report, the WGMS measured 136 glaciers from Antarctica to Canada and from Bolivia to Japan, and found that almost 90% are shrinking” WGMS is the World Glacier Monitoring Service

  23. Davy on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 5:01 am 

    “no tent cities”

    immigrant camps? They are all over Europe.

  24. Davy on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 5:03 am 

    “For that alone, “WW3 will be worth it”.”

    Yea, your version of it where Europe is untouched and the US destroyed. LOL that one.

  25. deadly on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 5:05 am

    Snow and ice extent is greater in 2018 than in 2017.

    The facts, that’s what works.

  26. Davy on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 5:14 am 

    Deadly, the Arctic ice is what matters. Show me the stats for that. What we have is a crowding phenomenon going on where warm air is forced into the Arctic and the cold air there bulges down where it once did not go as frequently and in long patterns of meandering. It has been unseasonably cold here in Missouri for March and April but unseasonably warm in the Arctic at times.

  27. Davy on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 5:26 am 

    “GEFIRA: In 2020, German Society Will Start Collapsing”

    “The next crisis is just a couple of years away, and Germany will be its largest victim. Economies grow, driven by capital and labour. The ECB monetary policy is currently providing the German economy with enough funds, but the country is experiencing a catastrophic lack of youth, and its ageing labour force is not being replaced as a result of which workforce is already in short supply. Since the German population is declining at a staggering pace, before the end of the century there will only be 22 million indigenous Germans left. Currently the working population has already begun to shrink. This drop is still moderate compared to what will come after 2020. The disappearing of the nation that has just begun will have catastrophic consequences.”

    “In the past, the German economy was able to attract employees from Southern, Eastern and Central Europe, but at present the demographic situation in states such as Spain, Portugal, Italy and Poland – which have long provided Germany with workforce – has worsened, so for all practical purposes these sources of labour have all but dried out. Poland for instance has lost a large number of young people to the West European labour market and the loss has not been made good because of extremely low fertility.The financial sector depends on a growing economy, but – apart from periods of temporary increase – there is no significant growth, and banks have to unwind their positions by selling their assets and returning cash to their clients. When the ageing population tries to sell its investments – stocks, obligations or companies – after 2020 they will find a declining working age population that is willing and able to buy these assets. It is already difficult for German business owners to find successors.”

    “The German society is like most of the Western communities heavily indebted. The growing pension obligation makes German debt obligation in the long run unsustainable. The German economy is facing the same problems as the Japanese economy, which has not grown for twenty years. Japan, Italy, and Spain (the world’s third, ninth and fourteenth economies) are experiencing the demographic winter with all attendant problems. Germany, the world’s fourth largest economy, is next in line. Academic economists are still blind to what demographers can easily see: after 200 years of continuous growth, the population in the industrial world is decreasing. To put it simply: you cannot have your economy twice as big while at the same time having your population twice as small. Even if productivity quadrupled, there would still be too few consumers of goods and services. In conclusion, Germany’s problems will only start to accelerate after 2020 when every year the working age population will be reduced by 400 thousand people; by 2028 this number will amount to three-quarters of a million. The disappearance of the German nation will entail the next systemic crisis.”

  28. sidzepp on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 6:51 am

    Interesting even if it comes from a “Fake” news source

  29. Kat C on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 7:31 am 

    Davy right on, anyone who thinks the US is untouched by WWIII is nutz. Even if all fought in Europe there would be radiation spread in air and water and the liklihood of nuclear winter and starvation. But of course Russia once nuked or perhaps once they sure they would be nuked would retaliate. Just as starters
    “Kanyon is reportedly a very long range autonomous underwater vehicle that has a range 6,200 miles, a maximum depth of 3,280 feet, and a speed of 100 knots according to claims in leaked Russian documents. But what really makes Kanyon nightmare fuel is the drone torpedo’s payload: a 100-megaton thermonuclear weapon. By way of comparison, the atomic bomb dropped on Hiroshima was 16 kilotons, or the equivalent of 16,000 tons of TNT. Kanyon’s nuke would be the equivalent of 100,000,000 tons of TNT. That’s twice as powerful as Tsar Bomba, the most powerful thermonuclear weapon ever tested. Dropped on New York City, a 100-megaton bomb would kill 8 million people outright and injure 6 million more. Kanyon is designed to attack coastal areas, destroying cities, naval bases, and ports. The mega-bomb would also generate an artificial tsunami that would surge inland, spreading radioactive contamination with the advancing water. To make matters worse there are reports the warhead is “salted” with the radioactive isotope Cobalt-60. Contaminated areas would be off-limits to humanity for up to 100 years. Kanyon is designed to get around American ballistic missile defenses, primarily the Ground-Based Interceptor missiles based in Alaska and California. ….” And that is just one of the new weapons Russia says it has that can evade our defenses. This one leaked earlier has been confirmed by the Pentagon

  30. Kat C on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 7:37 am 

    Davy here is a different take on the Skirpal case by Jospeh Farrell who himself admits to “high Octane speculation”
    Basically he wonders if in fact May and Johnson were set up by others to take a fall on the whole event for the benefit of Germany who is opposed to Brexit. Don’t know if it holds water or not but it is always interesting to see another possible explanation for insanity in high places

  31. Kat C on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 7:41 am 

    OOOps linked to the wrong Joseph Farrell article

  32. kanon on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 8:16 am 

    deadly: “The facts, that’s what works.”

    You mean carefully chosen and focus group tested facts. There is not much point in discussing whether show cover extent actually proves anything. Snow means cold, the opposite of global warming.

    energy investor: “But, I suppose we will know by 2030 whether the IPCC theory is right about AGW.”

    If we do learn in 2030 that the IPCC is right, we will have to transition to a whole new set of talking points. AGW will become the focus of a new investment paradigm.

  33. energy investor on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 6:56 pm 

    Kanon, yes.

    One way or another it seems we will see who was right and who wasn’t by 2030. And yes, also wonder if we were to wait, would we lose much from the delay if the IPCC meme is right? I am not sure we would.

    Germany has recently spent almost 1 trillion dollars (on CO2 discharge reduction) to convert their economy to the highest cost per kwhr for energy (favouring renewables)and yet they are being forced to re-open coal plants and import more gas from Russia. At the same time with their CO2 emissions still increasing year on year to end 2017.

    It strikes me that the OECD can employ all the restraints it wants and at whatever cost, but while Russia, China, India and the other emerging economies are ramping up their CO2 discharge, the anthropogenic global attack on CO2 is losing the fight anyway. Perhaps that doesn’t matter?

    I haven’t yet checked the other references. We just had a storm so I am going to be busy picking up trees for a while and am going offline. At least I have power on to my home.

    Had a look at the Keeling graphs and note my recollection was wrong. They say CO2 isn’t 415ppm, it is 410ppm at present. Apologies for my mistake as I should have looked before writing.

    Obviously Sissyfuss doesn’t like my stats on CO2 anyway as he/she hasn’t commented yet.

    My beef is not to say that depleting aquifers are not going to cause problems for humanity – which they obviously are, it is simply to say that a grand solar minimum, if the solar scientists and non IPCC paleoclimatologists are right, could cause an early descent into a mini ice age, with among its effects, massive flooding.

    If that were to happen, then we would have worse problems than either global warming or aquifer depletion.

    Prof Fagan’s book on “The Mini Ice Age…” provides an excellent read as to the effects of a temporary cooling cycle.

    I won’t be drawn into the implications of our position in the 100,000 year Milankovich cycles and whether humans can reasonably counter the sort of cooling from that as the earth moves away from the sun. Some folk can discuss that in a few hundred years time for all I care.

    The current debate is over the present cooling cycle of the sun and its possible impacts on our weather for the next 30 odd years.

    I am still mystified at how a gas (CO2) that comprises less than 0.04% of the atmosphere can have any impact on atmospheric warming or cooling – particularly as Al Gore and IPCC claim. I am also mystified how some of the scientific community (other than the consensus of all those in Russia, India and China) can somehow believe that while the sun cycles and other natural events seemingly caused massive heating and cooling on earth for 2.6 million years, yet we humans can now dominate those effects with a relatively tiny bit of extra CO2.

    The magnitude of my puzzlement is contained in the CO2 stats that I mentioned above in my reply at 9.36pm on 9 April.

    It is easy for the IPCC media machine to villify anyone who questions the logic of their questionable theories. Frankly, I find it annoying because it is the main reason that they can get away with the absurd claims that the science is settled and that 97% of scientists agree with their reports.

    Now the dissent has been driven under ground but it seems to be winning on logic. I have sat on the fence for the last 10 years on the subject but I am learning fast. Another set of satellite resports of atmospheric cooling, and the entire Gore/IPCC narrative will be blown apart. So we probably won’t need to wait for 2030.

  34. DerHundistlos on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 8:51 pm 

    “Energy” and “kanon” and other like-minded sock puppets always show-up at the most predictable time. It’s as if Koch Bros. headquarters sends out an alarm to Heritage Institute, Heartland Institute, and CATO calling forth all paid Denialists for a full court press, lest the quarterly funding checks get put on hold.

    The funniest part is watching the denialists get their panties all in a wad.

  35. energy investor on Tue, 10th Apr 2018 11:03 pm 


    I am not a sock puppet, nor am I in anyone’s pay. But I am intelligent enough to know that “something stinks in the state of Denmark” over the IPCC global warming meme.

    That isn’t to say it is wrong, but if you bozos arent watching the snow falling in the Sahara desert in March and in Saudi Arabia this month then you aren’t even watching the weather let alone having anything to contribute on the subject of climate change.

    I can guarantee that you have not looked at both sides of the argument. But I will take the argument to a site that is focused on climate change.

    There is no-one here who is competent to argue the facts or perhaps someone would have done so. If all you and Sissyfuss can do is to resort to ad hominems then you are just stupid and don’t deserve to be here. You effectively are the trolls you profess to hate.

  36. Kat C on Wed, 11th Apr 2018 4:05 am 

    Energy investor, if what you are interested is in someone to argue the facts why did you ignore my documented post showing that 90% of glaciers are shrinking refuting your non documented post saying that glaciers are increasing in size?

  37. Sissyfuss on Wed, 11th Apr 2018 8:37 am 

    EI, I am getting too old to want to constantly battle the investor denialists in a never-ending exercise in futility. The science of AGW is evident to those that aren’t protecting their portfolio. There was no pause in warming in the last 20 years. That was the result of cherry picked stats from the likes of your ilk. The ice core samples show that for the last 800,000 years the CO2 level has been consistent at 280 ppm. We are going up 2 to 3 parts annually. Co2 is not the enemy, excess CO2 is. Recent research shows that the underbellys of Antarctic ice sheets are melting over 5 times the normal rate . The rapidly warming oceans have captured over 90% of the excess CO2 produced by human activity and when they are no longer sinks but become emmiters it will literally take your breath away. I could go on ad infinitum but as I said, I grow weary. You will find anything I have to say on this subject spurious but where your heart is found your treasures exist and you as an investor are concerned with money and wealth. And you certainly have enough company to find consensus with.

  38. fmr-paultard on Wed, 11th Apr 2018 9:17 am 

    sis, ich habe solche Angst. Das Eurotard-Invasions-Szenario ist tödlich, weil es direkt von Star Trek ausgeht. Spock wurde in eine Fälschung gelockt (Fake-News läuten eine Glocke? Eurotard ist prestigeträchtiger Empfänger von Bagdad Bob Award) Friedensverhandlungen mit dem romulanischen Rat und dann tascha yar stahlen Verbandsschiffe von einem Schrottplatz und geladen mit romulanischen Schocktruppen. Das ist es, was mich nachts wach hält, die Flotte von Eurotard-Passagierjets, beladen mit feminisierten Schock-Nazi-Truppen. wir wecken besser unsere Supertards

  39. fmr-paultard on Wed, 11th Apr 2018 10:18 am 

    this military doctrine of using civilian infrastructure for offensive purposes has no defense. we better wake up our supertards? our doctrine is outdated and suited only for counter insurgency warfare against opponents in the ME without significant economic dual use infrastructure.

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