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Steady State Economics: We’ve Got Some (Systems) Thinking To Do

Steady State Economics: We’ve Got Some (Systems) Thinking To Do thumbnail

In this time of impending economic and ecological crises, we urgently need to aim for a sustainable or ‘steady state’ economy. In order to get there, we will need to adopt a ‘systems-thinking’ outlook taking into account the interconnections of our complex world. We will also need to consider the issue of de-growth, and re-prioritise kindness and the commons. We have a choice as to whether we act now to make this transition voluntarily and with fairness, or have it forced upon us by times of economic, resource and ecological collapse.

In short, we’ve got some systems thinking to do.

On Systems-Thinking

In the big picture, all things are interrelated. A virus hitches a ride on a droplet and a few weeks later the skies are empty of aircraft, you can stroll down the middle of the highway and there’s been a run on bog-roll. Anticipating these interrelationships merely requires perspective, but in our modern society, few folk have the time to indulge in such long-view observations. We have become increasingly specialised and lost the big picture perspective in inverse proportion.

We call people ‘experts’ when they’ve reached the pointy end of any discipline. However, there is often very little engagement between separate expert ‘siloes’. As we listen to them we must remember that outside of their expertise, they are no more likely to be correct than anyone else. They, in turn rely on ‘experts’ in other disciplines, even though they may hold knowledge that renders that ‘other discipline’ pontificator, wrong. This specialisation of knowledge can get whole societies into serious trouble.

R. Buckminster Fuller and his famous Geodesic dome invention

Luckily there are people who travel in the opposite direction; towards an ever-bigger picture. They are Systems thinkers, or as Buckminster Fuller once put it; Generalists. Now seems like an opportune time to bring systems-thinking to the fore; to support more Generalism; and ultimately, to question what we are doing, whether we are doing well or badly, and whether we can continue on our present course.

Systems are everywhere. Your car is one such and it is made up of myriad smaller systems; oil-pumping, fuel-delivery, water-cooling, braking. If any of the smaller systems fail, the big one ceases to function as it did, despite all the other onboard systems still being intact.

On Feedback loops

In between systems, there are feed-back loops; your engine starts off cold, so the thermostat closes off the flow of water through it. As the engine warms, the thermostat opens. Hotter still, the radiator-cooling fan kicks in. All designed to keep the cooling system in balance.

Feed-back loops can be disruptive; a nail lying on the verge flicks between your treads, penetrates the tyre and you’re on the side of the road, wheel-brace in hand, contemplating an unscheduled visit to the tyre shop.

Feed-back loops can cease suddenly; a vehicle’s many systems can be toiling away nobly, then a head-on smash results in permanent (and totally unexpected) cessation.

Feed-back loops can also reverse, as my favourite Systems-thinker, the late Donella (Dana) Meadows, explains perfectly here. Meadows uses the example of  fish-stocks collapsing once overfished beyond their ability to procreate and replenish naturally.

Limits To Growth

Systems-thinking identifies the drivers and the driven. The knock-ons and the knock-backs. The underpinnings, the impediments and the trends. Stand back far enough and we can capture economic activity, population counts, resource stocks, rates of depletion and amounts of pollution, all intermeshed.

Meadows was one of the key players in the most ground-breaking Systems publication of all time; the 1972 book ‘Limits to Growth’. With hindsight, we can see what it warned of, why certain interest groups belittled its message, and crucially, where we are now on the global trajectory.

Update of the first Limits to Growth print-out (originally named World3).

Take the time to ingest that graph. Follow every line. Note where we are, and how much we’ve done about it with fifty years of this knowledge. The resistance, of course, came from those with something to lose and from those peddling a narrative that would be rendered false by any acknowledgement of limits to eternal economic growth.

A False Narrative

That graph raises some questions, the biggest being: Why aren’t we discussing this, front-and-centre of our social narrative?

The reason is that we have largely consigned discussion and decision-making on these matters to the fictional creation we term ‘The Economy’ and its resident experts – ‘The Economists’. The assumptions of both have, until recently, gone largely unchallenged by most politicians and commentators. As a result, we have failed to challenge the assumed ‘givens’ of ‘Growth’ (often conflated with the crude measure of GDP). These ‘givens’ include poverty, jobs, income, wealth, savings, investments, consumers and a host of other. All are discussed without thought as to how they might fit into the inconvenient reality of the limits to growth seen in the above graph.

Then we have a whole lot of real counts – resource-stocks, depletion-rates, degradation and pollution – which we group under the heading of ‘The Environment’; somehow of secondary importance. The narrative – that economics trumps ecology – is false. Our weighting is incorrect and beginning to show up at global scale in the likes of Climate Change. However, the denial of human Climate impacts, often comes from the same quarters as those ridiculing the Limits to Growth problem.

Towards a true narrative

One group who straddle the two Systems are Ecological Economists , a further subset of whom examine the Energy system. Some Energy-only experts have back-thought their realisations and begun challenging the Economics-only experts. A select few such as Nate Hagens have tied it all together.

Our Big-Picture System; Resources and Natural Capital.

In rough terms, we extract, process, consume and excrete natural resources. Think of it as a one-way conveyor-belt. Economics is the measure of the speed of the conveyor and how much stuff is on it. The remaining stocks at the front and the pile of poo behind go unmeasured in direct terms. The exception is when they show up indirectly. For example, the smell might show up as reduced house-prices near landfills, or bushfire cleanups may emerge as an inconvenient cost.

When we started this industrialisation process 200 years ago, the resource stocks of the planet were largely intact. We have increased the volume we are extracting/excreting and the speed at which we are doing it, ever since.

Resources fall into three categories; two being extracted, and one being filled.

  1. Finite resources – These we can dig up, use and – in theory – recycle. Obviously, there are two limits there; the amount available and the recycling possible.
  2. Renewable resources – These are the depletable resources like fish-stocks and soil-nutrient. Obviously, we have to use these at less than the renewal-rate.
  3. Sinks – These are the capacity of the systems of the biosphere – the atmosphere, land and ocean – to absorb our outputs and render them inert.

Renewables can be used to substitute for finite resources, but only at a rate no faster than they renew. Thus, in theory we can use solar energy (and the solar derivatives wind and hydro) to displace the finite stock of fossilised sunlight we currently use. Further complications arise, though, when other finite resources are required, in ever-increasing amounts, to create that solar-energy infrastructure. A classic example is the lithium and rare earth metals needed to produce solar panels and storage batteries.

Energy, diminishing returns and ‘EROEI

Economists tell us that energy represents a few percent of ‘the Economy’. They are wrong. Without energy nothing – absolutely nothing – happens. Including life, incidentally. So energy it is the 100% underwrite; the linch-pin of all linch-pins. Which makes it quite important when we’re Systems-thinking.

At the beginning of this 200-year aberration, we thought of energy as human, animal, and a small amount of wind and water. Productivity was therefore thought of as output per person (or horse). Nowadays, labour accounts for less than 1% of the work-done globally, most of the 99% is done by fossil-fuel energy.

There are thermodynamic limits to how well we can use fossil energy. As we approach these limits – despite new efficiencies such as computer-control, fuel-injection, metallurgy and design – their increase in ‘productivity’ will naturally be tailing off. This inexorable tailing-off of ‘productivity’ seems to be a puzzle to economists; that’s what happens when you concentrate on 1% of the big picture…

But it gets worse. As we hoed into the one-off stock of fossilised sunlight – coal, oil and gas – we went for the best, first. The lightest, sweetest, closest to the surface, closest to home, most pressurized oil. The blackest coal, the gas closest to shore, to a terminal or pipeline. The source with the least environmental safeguards and/or the most repressed workforce, and so on. This means that all ‘next’ options are ‘worse’. We have burnt the best – it’s gone. We are now down to fracking, tar-sands, and deep-offshore sources of oil. We’ve even contemplated lignite!

The problem is one of a reducing energy return on our energy investment (a reducing EROEI). All life has to be in positive-EROEI territory, the classic example being a wolf chasing a rabbit; if the rabbit is scrawny and expends energy in the life-or-death chase, the eating of it may not return the energy the wolf expended doing the chasing. There may be a thousand rabbits of similar plumpness a similar distance away, but if the wolf doesn’t up his EROEI game, he’ll die.

We have gone for the best EROEI energy options at every move. Until we used the best and started down through the remaining options. Oil, at it’s best, had an EROEI of 100:1; for every barrel of oil it took to extract oil, we got 100 barrels out of the ground. Globally, that is now well under 20:1 and dropping like a stone.

We will likely compensate at first by skimping on infrastructure maintenance, then by increasingly desperate triage. If that sounds totally at odds with politicians urging ever-more roads-to-nowhere, well, it is.

The same reduction in resource quality noted for fossil energy is true of all other resources. Copper now requires the removal of 400 tons of overburden, where it once required 10. Not only that, but the diggers are running on 20:1 EROEI energy, and dropping.

In summary, we don’t recycle enough and we don’t sequester carbon enough, because both demand more energy than we can spare, and the divergence is widening. In the small circles discussing these compounding issues, it has become known as the Red Queen syndrome; you find yourself running ever faster just to stay on the same spot.

Where to from here?

Diagram of natural resource flows

Logic tells us that what we have been doing, is creating our problems. It suggests, then, that we need to be doing something other than what we’ve been doing. Logic also tells us that we will end up living at a sustainable level, whether we choose to go there proactively or whether we are forced there by our own resource-depletion and habitat-destruction efforts.

To be as smooth as possible, this change has to be managed using a Systems overview. Single-topic approaches, at this stage, cannot be adequate – our approach needs to consider the big picture and have all the above factors weighted correctly. This is quite a task in the remaining time available, and considering the predictable push-back.

We could start by introducing clearer rules around use of the three Resources. How about:

  1. No use of finite resources unless either, a. the energy to recycle them, or b. their complete replacement by renewables are both proven and feasible.
  2. No use of renewables (eg soil) at beyond their capacity to renew; the cost of monitoring to be borne by the user.
  3. No filling of sinks (eg pumping carbon into the atmosphere) beyond agreed levels; the cost of monitoring to be borne by the user. (It may be that ‘cost’ is not effective enough and we have to revert to forced cessation).

How we fit our social construct into this new approach is up for grabs. I suggest that less people equals more resources per head; this ratio being the true measure of wealth. Economics seems to have the wrong end of the stick yet again. Would you rather have fuel in your tank and food on the table, or a collection of bank-issued digital ‘1’s and ‘0’s? Ascertaining the resources-per-head desired – globally but within New Zealand too – will suggest an optimum population. As Grant Duncan of Massey University suggests, we need to focus on increased consumption as much as population growth. Again, going there voluntarily, and at our own pace, rather than being forced by circumstance, would seem preferable.

The Steady State Economy

Rēkohu 2121. Alan Marshall,

Ecotopia 2021 project

 

Ultimately, we must construct a Steady State economy based on the above principles. In other words, we have to reverse growth, abolish interest and reduce debt, and reflect limits by setting limits and enforcing them Other societies have, for good reason, taken such steps. Just how de-growth fits with big-picture Systems thinking is an interesting intellectual aside, but the hard reality is that in the coming decades, we will likely be consuming less. Far less.

So what will the Steady State societies of the future look like? Likely we will be attempting 100% recycling/reuse of materials. Likely we will be attempting 100% nutrient recycling in food terms. Likely we will be valuing biodiversity far more. Likely we will have a discussion about ‘the Commons’, and reclaiming them (from those who ‘enclosed’ or privatised, monopolised, then charged). Likely we will be more local. A lot more local. Likely we will become a more egalitarian, more community-minded and ‘trust-based’ society. Maybe we will even become more kind.

Time we got the change underway.

Help us develop a new narrative for a Steady State Society” 

the scoop



38 Comments on "Steady State Economics: We’ve Got Some (Systems) Thinking To Do"

  1. makati1 on Mon, 25th May 2020 7:12 pm 

    WOW! This is pure fantasy dreaming way beyond even a Walt Disney idea of the future. It can only be Steady State Society IF…we live on a 3rd world level and there are about 3-4 billion fewer of us eaters.

    The idea is about 100 years too late. It is now being crushed by a bug we cannot even see, but is the weapon of choice to beat us down, and delete a few billion of us eaters, by our elite masters.

    Does anyone else get tired of these tree hugger, unicorn lover pep talks? Why must every article about the future end with such Hippie Hope? They talk reality, then slip into a druggie dream world as if they cannot face the truth. Sigh!

  2. DT on Mon, 25th May 2020 9:55 pm 

    Yes this article is rather silly. However, the author does refer to the limits to growth and that was brought out back in the seventies. Economists scoffed way back when and still do. The common narrative of multinational corporate industrial civilization is still ignoring the realities of the predicament of endless growth that has brought humanity now to the precipice of self destruction. We humans need to face the fact that as biological entities, collectively humans are no smarter then yeast in a wine vat consuming and procreating until the food is gone.

  3. makati1 on Tue, 26th May 2020 2:31 am 

    True DT. Humans are just a passing event in the Billions of years the planet has existed. Maybe 8 Billion years have passed, along with several extinction events. Humans have been here, maybe 3 Million years or so. Not 1/2000th of that time.

    We will likely be gone in the next 100 years from some stupidity or another. Being able to think and realize we are alive, and will suffer death, is the only things that differ us from dinosaurs who lasted for 60+ million years and only were wiped out by a comet, not their own stupidity and greed. Our fixation on some old man in the heavens has destroyed our ability to live together as one race. Sigh!

  4. forbin on Tue, 26th May 2020 3:18 am 

    “A lot more local. Likely we will become a more egalitarian, more community-minded and ‘trust-based’ society”

    somebody hasn’t been studying their local tribe / chiefdom’s histories .

    They wage war almost constantly with genocide and infanticide with a good dose of hunger with starvation.

    dear reader, please look it up yourself.

    And this author really thinks humanity will some how be different this time ?

    foolish person

  5. Abraham van Helsing on Tue, 26th May 2020 3:24 am 

    “We humans need to face the fact that as biological entities, collectively humans are no smarter then yeast in a wine vat consuming and procreating until the food is gone.”

    Pious thoughts, but if people stand up to seriously do something about it, they are sabotaged by DT, makati and empire dave and denounced as “techie wet dreamers”.

    Three gloating nihilists who don’t want to miss out on the Greatest Show on Earth, namely the demise of humanity.

  6. forbin on Tue, 26th May 2020 3:31 am 

    Dear Reader,

    the Earth is approx. 4.5 billion years old. For about 2 /2.5 billion it did not even have today’s Earth like atmosphere.

    Then the great oxygen event took place . Then around 541 million years ago the Cambrian explosion took place.

    In around 500/600 million years regardless of what ever Mankind does the Earth will be too hot for life. The sun’s heat output is rising since it was formed. photosynthesis needs min 150ppm of CO2. that will be too much by then due to the extra heat and CO2 being a greenhouse gas.

    no photosynthesis means the oceans will boil dry and Earth will then resemble Venus.

    Thus the idea of “sustainability” is obviously false.

    Sure in terms of the human idea of time we may make a difference, maybe, – long term forget it, certainly if we revert back to stone age tribalism that many so called “greens” want.

    Forbin

  7. DT on Tue, 26th May 2020 4:37 am 

    “gloating nihilists” ? I used to think in terms of humanity doing the right thing and being able to turn things around. Then I educated myself about the realities of modernity and the self destructive nature that humans collectively, en-masse bring on themselves and the surrounding bio-sphere. Seeing the world that humans have created with eyes wide open is nothing special or extreme, it only is to people that see the world on a small scale through rose colored glasses.

  8. Sock Buster on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:22 am 

    DT=JuanPee

  9. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:25 am 

    Steady state economy is possible in a smaller world not today’s world of overshoot of population and consumption. You can get there locally with the right people and place.

  10. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:28 am 

    “I educated myself about the realities of modernity and the self destructive nature that humans collectively, en-masse bring on themselves and the surrounding bio-sphere.”

    juanPee, you mean you live like a could careless Miami Beach asshole. You only have educated yourself on how to screw people over.

  11. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:29 am 

    “Pious thoughts, but if people stand up to seriously do something about it, they are sabotaged by DT, makati and empire dave and denounced as “techie wet dreamers”.”

    Tech is the reason this world is a mess and failing. Behavioral changes are needed not more tech. Tech needs to follow behavior not drive it.

  12. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:32 am 

    “Our fixation on some old man in the heavens has destroyed our ability to live together as one race. Sigh!”

    Bullshit, it is hate and resentment from people like you that has led the human race to the brink. Laziness and selfishness have gone hand in hand to take away higher cause also.

  13. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:35 am 

    “Does anyone else get tired of these tree hugger, unicorn lover pep talks? Why must every article about the future end with such Hippie Hope? They talk reality, then slip into a druggie dream world as if they cannot face the truth. Sigh!”

    Better than asshole talk of yours of how bad everyone else is and how wonderful you are. You live on a dirty beach in the P’s doing nothing and living off your social security and then you point fingers at someone trying to make a difference.

  14. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:37 am 

    “We humans need to face the fact that as biological entities, collectively humans are no smarter then yeast in a wine vat consuming and procreating until the food is gone.”

    juanPee, the yeast comparison always comes out of those who can’t think beyond their nose. This is not about smarter it is about how the planet operates. We are part of the planet.

  15. JuanP on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:52 am 

    How China Is Building and Bugging Government Offices In African Nations
    China has been building key government offices and facilities in African countries for decades and fitting them with gear that likely allows the Chinese government to spy on everyone, from presidents and prime ministers to judges and generals and beyond, according to a recent Heritage Foundation report.
    https://www.theepochtimes.com/how-china-is-building-and-bugging-government-offices-in-african-nations_3362871.html

  16. More from the Lunatic on Tue, 26th May 2020 7:14 am 

    Sock Buster on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:22 am

    Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:25 am

    Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:28 am

    Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:29 am

    Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:37 am

    JuanP on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:52 am
    Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:32 am

    Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 5:35 am

  17. forbin on Tue, 26th May 2020 7:36 am 

    “Ultimately, we must construct a Steady State economy”

    Who’s the “we” in all this ? the people? don’t be silly .

    Totalitarianism again ?

    check your social credits folks !

  18. Sissyfuss on Tue, 26th May 2020 9:36 am 

    A steady state economy might arise from the ashes of our collapsing industrial system but its more accurate title would the Greatest Depression.

  19. DT on Tue, 26th May 2020 9:44 am 

    Sock Buster = Has no idea what is and is not.

  20. Chinese jew killer on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:27 am 

    Well as long as chicken and egg fried rice survives the coming “End of The World oilpocalypse” I will be happy.

  21. Lord Thompson ( a Bastard ) on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:32 am 

    Just before rolling out of my cocoon this mornin’ I let go of a huge wet one. I fear to look below as I know its bad down there! Oh how grim my lord!
    The end of the West I tell you!
    The covid 19 liquid farts highlights the decline of once great young people like myself.

  22. makati1 on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:35 am 

    You are a disgusting bastard Lord Thompson, a disgusting wet arsed bastard!

  23. Richard Guenette on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:35 am 

    There won’t be any sustainability while greed and ignorance destroys Earth.

  24. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:40 am 

    I agree with makati for once!, these wet fart bastards with their virus can just fuck off. Nobody here cares for your disease ridden bodies!, we do not need to read your daily journals of horror as you descend into madness and liquod shit farts!
    die quietly now like a good Frenchman!

  25. Richard Guenette on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:45 am 

    Excuse my somewhat forlorn comments for I too have the liquid farts and awoke this morning at 3am in my own brown cloud of sharts.
    The horror!

  26. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:46 am 

    How the US and Israel are Bugging Government Offices In every nation.
    America has been bugging key government offices and facilities in countries everywhere for decades and fitting them with gear that likely allows the Amerijew government to spy on everyone, from presidents and prime ministers to judges and generals and beyond, according to common knowledge.
    US spies on ‘the entire globe’, experts say
    https://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-24627187

  27. Abraham van Helsing on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:50 am 

    Oh god its happening to me! Im down to my last 67 rolls of toilet paper so I might not last long!
    Luckily the Dutch toilet paper is the best and produced by green factories running on the biggest shit paper maker wind turbines!

  28. REAL Green on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:52 am 

    So true Davy. So true.

  29. makati1 on Tue, 26th May 2020 10:56 am 

    Will Real Greens’ liquid farts be tinged with green?

    These are the questions our world faces today…

  30. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 11:02 am 

    Is it normal to fart 4-5 times a minute?
    oh shit…..
    Could this be the end of the amurkan empire? like that aircraft carrier where everyone had the shits?
    aye carumba!
    discuss and insult……., GO!

  31. Duncan Idaho on Tue, 26th May 2020 11:35 am 

    Trump’s Little Big Horn: In the War on the Coronavirus, we Needed an Eisenhower; We got Custer
    (No offense to Custer- I know a comparison with the Fat Boy is always a downer)
    https://www.juancole.com/2020/05/trumps-coronavirus-eisenhower.html

  32. Duncan Idaho on Tue, 26th May 2020 11:44 am 

    The Pig Problem continues:
    ‘They Killed This Man’: Video Shows Minneapolis Cop Kneeling on Black Man’s Neck as Onlookers Warn He’s Being Crushed to Death

    Where do they find find these psychopaths?

  33. JuanP on Tue, 26th May 2020 12:08 pm 

    I fart 4-5 times a minute?
    oh shit…..
    Could this be the end of the Chinese empire? like that aircraft carrier where everyone had the shits?
    aye carumba!
    discuss and insult……., GO!

  34. DT on Tue, 26th May 2020 12:09 pm 

    Will Greens’ liquid farts be tinged with green?

    These are the questions our world faces today…

  35. JuanP on Tue, 26th May 2020 12:11 pm 

    “The Pig Problem continues:
    ‘They Killed This Man’: Video Shows Minneapolis Cop Kneeling on Black Man’s Neck as Onlookers Warn He’s Being Crushed to Death
    Where do they find find these psychopaths?”

    Dumb fuck Duncan, Minneapolis is a Blue place so that cop was a liberal fuck like you

  36. JuanP on Tue, 26th May 2020 12:13 pm 

    Forum please note this for the last time:

    We (juanPee, JuanP, supremist muzzie jerk, Richard Guenette, Boney Joe, Truth Buster, Gaia, Kenz300,DT, Rick, Socialrevolutioncoming…..are spending less time on this lame unmoderated forum to concentrate on our chronic depression. We want to thank Davy for moderating us because we need it. We have saved the best of are comments for are new blog. We have years worth of sock material. We have enjoyed being moderating and neutering because our agendas. We will still be here it is just we will be spending more time putting laying in the fetal position in bed. We don’t expect much of help with depression. This is more a suicidal condition over the last 10 years of formulating are REAL Depressed. Many of my suicidal thoughts and filthy lifestyles our my egotistical way of life. We plagiarize and do ID theft daily ruining this forum. Anyone can kill themselves. Do it if it feels good I am thinking about it. For stalkers like me I hope I find more stalking opportunities. LOL. There will be a prize for anyone who can find where I live and rat me out. Double LOL. Anyway fuck are all of you I hate everyone including myself. I guess we could post more on the moderated section at PO dot com, but we knew we’d get are ass permanently banned for the socks and ID theft stupidity. We’ll try not to let the door smack us up the backside on the way out.

    Goodbye to ALL of you dumbasses.

  37. Davy on Tue, 26th May 2020 12:41 pm 

    Forum please note this for the last time:

    We (davy, JuanP, supremist muzzie jerk, Sum, , Truth Buster, Rick, REAL GREEN, The moderator, JuanP the Lunatic…..are spending less time on this lame unmoderated forum to concentrate on our chronic depression. We want to thank all the intelligent posters here for moderating us because I need it. We have saved the best of are comments for are new blog. We have years worth of sock material. We have enjoyed being moderated and neutered because of my stupid exceptionalist agenda. I will still be here it is just we will be spending more time laying in the fetal position in my bedroll. I don’t expect much of help with depression not in where I live. This is more a suicidal condition over the last 10 years of formulating my REAL Depressed GREEN way because of my any suicidal thoughts and filthy stalking and my egotistical way of life. I plagiarize and do ID theft daily ruining this forum. Anyone can kill themselves except me it seems. I’d Do it if I wasn’t such a coward, though I am thinking about it a lot. For stalkers like me I hope I find more stalking opportunities. LOL. There will be a prize for anyone who can find where I live and rat me out (Dent county Missouri). Double LOL. Anyway fuck are all of you I hate everyone including myself. I guess we could post more on the moderated section at PO dot com, but I know we’d get are ass permanently banned for the socks and ID theft stupidity. We’ll try not to let the door smack us up the backside on the way out.

    Goodbye to ALL of you fuckwacks.

  38. REal Green on Wed, 27th May 2020 12:33 am 

    We need to see the docter Davy.

    REAL Bad like.

    stupid dumbass

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