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Never-ending Growth?

Never-ending Growth? thumbnail
Remaining at the present level would imply a continued carnage at the “commodity extraction frontier” until so little is left that eternal warfare and collapse are inevitable. (Remko de Waal/Getty-AFP)

Remaining at the present level would imply a continued carnage at the “commodity extraction frontier” until so little is left that eternal warfare and collapse are inevitable. (Remko de Waal/Getty-AFP)

The most ambitious internationally agreed plan to make this world a better place are the 17 Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs). But during their annual review, nobody dared to admit that the SDG that calls for sustained economic growth is fatally flawed, undermining the possibility to achieve the other SDGs.

Agreed by all nations back in 2015, the SDGs set a course of action until 2030. However, just the word ‘Development’ implies there is a single good path of change for all countries. Great minds like Arturo Escobar, Wolfgang Sachs, Gustavo Esteva and many others have argued against this idea for at least 30 years. That makes the Sustainable Development Goals slightly problematic by name. But there is a bigger problem with one of the 17 goals: SDG 8. This goal calls on all nations to go for sustained economic growth. That’s neither desirable nor sustainable.

SDG 8 is the fatal flaw within the SDGs. By taking this trojan horse in, the other SDGs will not be achieved. During the recent High-Level Political Forum (HLPF) at the United Nation’s (UN) headquarters in New York this was clear for all who were willing to see it, but very few dared to face this inconvenient truth.

SDGs: No climate of change

The most obvious incompatibility is between SDG 8 and SDG 13. The latter aims to ‘combat climate change’. The concentration of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere due mostly to the burning of dirty fuels continues to grow steadily (see Figure 1). The Kyoto (1997), Copenhagen (2009) and Paris (2015) agreements nor the first 4 years of the SDGs “2030 Agenda” register as a trend change on the Keeling curve.

Fig. 1 The Keeling curve.  

A close up of a logo  Description automatically generated

Let’s be clear. The link between burning fossil fuels, rising CO2 concentrations in the air and rising temperatures on the ground was made in 1896, by Svante Arrhenius. By the 1970’s companies like Exxon knew that burning fossil fuels causes dangerous climate disruption, but they decided to manufacture doubt. International commitments to prevent the climate chaos we are already in were made in the 1990s and ever since there has been only one year in which global emissions declined: 2019. That was also the only year in decades in which GDP declined.

Decoupling economic growth from environmental harm is a fairy-tale 

The concept of green, sustainable or ‘decoupled’ economic growth is based on the belief that expansion of the economy is possible without an accompanying increase in environmental harm. This idea gained political acceptance in the past decade.

However, all data show that there is no evidence supporting the existence of a decoupling of economic growth from environmental pressures on anywhere remotely close to the scale needed. This is one conclusion of the new report ‘Decoupling Debunked: Evidence and arguments against green growth as a sole strategy for sustainability’, produced by 6 scientists for the European Environmental Bureau. It is far from the only study that comes to this conclusion but it puts an unprecedented challenge to those who claim that decoupling justifies a continuation of the pursuit of GDP growth, even in a ‘green’ variety.

 Anyone who has studied our planet and is intellectually honest knows that there is only one way to prevent a total collapse of both our life support systems and our civilisation: a socially just, well organised degrowth of the global economy.

The authors write that there are at least 7 reasons why sufficient decoupling is extremely unlikely to ever happen: rising energy expenditures, rebound effects, problem shifting, the underestimated impact of services, limited recycling potential, insufficient and inappropriate technological change, and cost shifting. They give enough and convincing arguments for each of these 7 reasons to justify their Loch Ness monster on the cover of their report: sufficient decoupling as a mythical creature of the mind.

The objective of SDG 8 is to “sustain per capita economic growth in accordance with national circumstances and, in particular, at least 7 per cent gross domestic product growth per annum in the least developed countries.” This is supposed to magically happen by “improving progressively, through 2030, global resource efficiency in consumption and production and endeavour to decouple economic growth from environmental degradation ….” Never mind that whatever efficiency gains humanity made so far did not resulted in any decrease in total fossil fuels consumption.

Fake solution for real problem

As policymakers clearly fail to stop the rise of burning dirty fuels, they have tried to ‘make up’ by finding additional carbon dioxide sinks. This resulted in things like REDD (Reducing Emissions from Deforestation and forest Degradation) schemes that usually displace peasants and tribal peoples under the banner of being a climate solution. These ‘solutions’ are new problems. They don’t stop the march towards the commodity extraction frontiers to get hold of energy and materials sources that should be called “unburnable” and “unextractable”. Even a non-growing industrial economy would continue to be untenable because most energy is not recyclable and the circularity of the global economy is only 6% or 9%, depending on how you measure. The industrial economy is not circular but entropic, as explained by Nicholas Georgescu-Roegen already in 1971. The law of physics are immune to our framing, mind-games and psychological weaknesses, such as the urge for never-ending growth.

The victims of the growth model

Who are the first victims of this never-ending growth model? In the EJAtlas (Atlas of Environmental Justice, www.ejatlas.org) we have gathered 2850 documented cases of environmental conflict as of July 2019. The cases in the EJAtlas are only a sample of a broader, unknown number of environmental conflicts happening in the world. About 12 per cent of those involve mortal victims and the number of murdered environmental defenders has quadrupled in a decade. While indigenous peoples are only 5% of the world population, they represent 15% of the world’s poorest people and even more striking: they are involved in 40% of all environmental conflicts globally. But the push for growth of Gross Domestic Product (GDP) is coming not only at their expense. Study after study shows that on average, the poor, people of colour and indigenous peoples live closer to extraction sites, highly polluted areas, flood-prone areas and other risky or degraded sites. GDP growth already leads to unequally distributed extra environmental harm which in turn deepens existing social inequalities. It should not come as a surprise that at the HLPF, experts agreed that we are far off track to address inequalities, which is SDG 10. They are also rising, instead of declining. No less than 56 people contributed to a state of the art report exposing the failure to deal with this crisis in ‘Falling through the cracks. Exposing inequalities in the EU and beyond.’

The UN bubble vs. the real world

At the UN’s 2019 High Level Political Forum in New York, the annual review of the progress on achieving the SDGs, the one refrain issued by almost all delegates from all governments who spoke in the review of SDG 8 was: “we need more economic growth”.  Delegates from Israel and Switzerland were priding themselves on their growth rates and even the delegates from countries like Sweden and Costa Rica only talked about sustainable or decoupled growth, not postgrowth or degrowth.

Greenhouse gas emissions will continue to rise together with economic growth, no matter what the adjective is that politicians put before it, depending on what’s in vogue. Even remaining at the present level would imply a continued carnage at the “commodity extraction frontier” until so little is left that eternal warfare and collapse are inevitable. Anyone who has studied our planet and is intellectually honest knows that there is only one way to prevent a total collapse of both our life support systems and our civilisation: a socially just, well organised degrowth of the global economy.

common dreams



36 Comments on "Never-ending Growth?"

  1. Duncan Idaho on Mon, 29th Jul 2019 8:43 pm 

    Anyone who has studied our planet and is intellectually honest knows that there is only one way to prevent a total collapse of both our life support systems and our civilisation: a socially just, well organised degrowth of the global economy.

    Bingo!
    We have a winner

  2. I AM THE MOB on Mon, 29th Jul 2019 9:01 pm 

    Billionaire Ray Dalio: U.S. economy must change or there will be ‘conflict’ between the rich and poor

    https://www.cnbc.com/2019/07/29/bridgewaters-ray-dalio-us-economy-must-be-fixed.html?__source=Facebook%7Cmain&fbclid=IwAR3RRZpdZ-CSkXnVEFtpR4PX4qCEWKhsqjeNfLJHPNJPpRm9pN2-miASSek

  3. Davy on Mon, 29th Jul 2019 9:04 pm 

    The REAL Winners like me get to keep are million dollar yachts, are private jets, are getaways in the Bahamas, and are 500 acre goat and cow operations complete with 3000 watt solar arrays and all the other techno- optimistic REAL Green Adaptation stuff that costs a shit load of money. The rest of you dumbasses get to pound sand.

    dumbass losers

  4. I AM THE MOB on Mon, 29th Jul 2019 9:55 pm 

    Trump threatened to classify Antifa as a terrorist group. Germans hit back

    https://edition.cnn.com/2019/07/29/europe/germany-antifa-trump-twitter-scli-intl/index.html

  5. Cloggie on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 1:25 am 

    “Trump threatened to classify Antifa as a terrorist group. Germans hit back”

    Communist News Network has trouble discerning between “Germans” and “German antifa”.lol

    It must be said though that German antifa are the real thing, much in contrast to its US counterpart, that are merely pussies, who have to at home for dinner at 17:00 pm. We all know how ruthless Germans can be!

    https://youtu.be/2a_36lxA4HI

    Weimar America: early CW2 scenes from Berkely where US antifa gets a beating:

    https://youtu.be/z4ftMf35LTw

  6. Chrome Mags on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 1:40 am 

    The latest CO2 level may have been 411.84 in July, but the high mark each year is in May, and this past May it hit 414.85. Adding in Nitrous Oxide and Methane, the CO2e (equivalent) is close to 500.

  7. Cloggie on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 1:51 am 

    BoJo, standing in front of a Trident, is flirting with Farage over Brexit:

    https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7298991/Boris-Johnson-says-Brexit-Party-incentive-EU-open-talks.html

    “Boris Johnson gives strong hint he WILL work with Nigel Farage’s Brexit Party as he says their MEPs provide ‘an incentive’ for EU to re-open talks on a deal with the UK”

    (Don’t be fooled Europe. As Sturgeon already said yesterday, these talks, if any, are intentionally destined to fail. BoJo has already embarked on no-deal. The only acceptable alternative for the backstop is a hard border in Ireland, which will mean civil war, not in Europe but in the UK)

    Time for a massive armament program, Europe! The beauty is that uncle Donnie has required us to do just that AND WE SHOULD!! Just pretend we are following US orders. No lousy 2%… 4%! And no stoopid navies (apart from das Boot): a slight increase in EADS jets, for sure, but most of all hypersonic missiles, aimed at taking out ZOG ships, jets and missiles.

    So missiles and fast ground-forces, for later operations in Southern Lybia, South-Africa, Ireland, Scotland and eventually the main price North-America.

    Meanwhile, we already have Vauxhall, expect Shell, Unilever, BA and many others to become next.

    England, the next fly-over country, if Boris gets way. It could very well be we need the EU army too, to end a civil war in England too.

    Life soon is getting extremely interesting again in Europe.

  8. Not Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 4:01 am 

    Davy on Mon, 29th Jul 2019 9:04 pm

  9. Cloggie on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 5:13 am 

    “Billionaire Ray Dalio: U.S. economy must change or there will be ‘conflict’ between the rich and poor“

    Read: conflict between the white Reps and mongrel Dems, the “topic” of the upcoming CW2 that will end the US. The strategy of the Dems racial bolsheviks is to bring as many third world soldiers into the US as possible in order to defeat whitey once and for all, all in the name of “fighting racism and white supremacism”, that goes without saying.

    Expect major geopolitical upward mobility for continental Europe as a result, that only has to pick up the pieces.

    Warning to Mexico and China: The Heartland is for us as we saw it first. Hurry up Macron with your EU army, we are going to need it.

    #1776Revisited

  10. Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 5:51 am 

    When I was young and idealistic in the late 80’s I embraced globalism and sustainable development. I was then aware of peak oil and climate change having studied them in collage in my geology and environmental electives. I also took a great philosophy class given by a somewhat radical Jesuit who believed in fighting economic injustice of the 3rd world. I remember him asking us how many different types of food processors do we really need in reference to the then rapidly expanding consumer culture. At the same time the worlds poor were rapidly growing in size and inequality. I bought into globalism with time in Europe and eventually a Spanish wife. I learned some German and Spanish and actually live those cultures. I spent a year working in Germany as an apprentice at a construction company. I was anti-American culture then. I rejected the plastic suburban consumer culture of my world. I avoided Americans and live European. I found European culture intoxicating.

    I am now against globalism after nearly 20 years of being a doomer and 15 being a dedicated prepper. I am now a dedicated alternative living proponent I am pushing my REAL Green Deep Adaptation. Prepping for possible societal collapse is part of this but the real push has come from understanding the energy and growth trap we are in. This catch 22 trap means we can’t green decouple (Fake Green) and we can’t degrowth (True Green) with any measurable success for systematic reasons. We are too far into technological development supporting population and consumption overshoot. The planet is in human induced succession environmentally with all the worlds great ecosystems. Planetary systems are being altered geologically and with climate. The various planetary cycles and the web of life are negatively converging to alter the planet beyond the stable regime human’s growth accompanied. Quality resources that allowed that growth are depleting. Soils and water resources fully exploited. All we can speak of positively is technology and the accompanying knowledge growth. Yet, this is also the problem because this has not contributed to wise growth. Humans are now in a late stage capitalism of anything profitable is exploited with increasing rapidity resulting in wealth and inequality and general population increases. We have the technology and the knowledge but we do not have the behavioral control. We can’t even get along which points to a population too large for human behavior to manage. Our tribalism clashes with our drive to globalism.

    Globalism is likely the pinnacle of human productivity but also destructive change. Humans will never match the current system of comparative advantage combined with economies of scale and global capital flows. This combined with technology and consumerism. Technology being the mechanics and consumerism the behavior. We are not going to decouple from this and address planetary destruction especially because the destruction has already tipped systems into their own particular change dynamics. Decoupling is preached as a way to grow without side effects. Now tell me does that work with anything? We now must live with consequences of our growth. Decoupling will fail because the right combination of population and behavior is not present. There is a point beyond which decoupling can work and humans have long since moved beyond that point.

    Degrowth is not possible without dramatic destructive forces of economic abandonment resulting in dysfunctional networks and irrational resulting behavior. It is far easier to build systems up then degrowth them rationally. This is especially true when human behavior for the most part is not up to the task. We have Fake Greens and those who believe there is no need to degrowth to begin with. These people actually believe more growth will solve are problems. They want more economic growth and more population. More ominously is the fact that most of the global population is incapable of understanding the issues to begin with. Even those who can are delusional with the solutions. Much of our academia and scientific best are part of this acceptance of the science showing the dangers but delusional with the solutions. A very small percentage is truly awakened to the honest science. We then have the nurturing in both industry and politics of pathological personalities of the extreme individual. There flawed humans are running the show.

    Human behavior cannot degrowth in these circumstances because this requires sacrifice and likely severe pain as the deck chairs on the sinking ship rearrange. In real degrowth people will starve. The idea we can eat insects and turn the world’s economies into a mass producers of food energy from whatever makes the most for the most is a hoax. Real degrowth is reduction in population and consumption both resulting in pain for systematic reasons. You mess with a complicated system in a complex civilization and destructive change happens. This pain is especially ture because so much human activity should not have developed in marginal locations. Tell me how that is going to sell anywhere? This means human civilization will increasingly take the default of being driven into destructive change by self-organizing forces both human and planetary. We will react with what we do best and that is more technology and more resources exploitation. This is more of the same which as we know some of our best minds have called insanity.

  11. Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 5:51 am 

    My REAL Green Deep Adaptation says accept this circumstance and respond accordingly as our ancestors did back when life was precarious. Then humans reacted locally and in small groups. This is the Deep Adaptation. The REAL Green is responding in a relative way. Green is better locally and individually but Green has to be embraced carefully because the status quo is not green or it is Fake Green. Late stage capitalism will swallow you up and spit you out if you take it on head to head. You yield to the forces of change both human and planetary. You make an effort to decline in place and under the radar of hostile forces. You are generally defensive and occasionally when warranted offensive with extreme prejudice like any formable creature. The offensive occurs when deadly forces are encountered. You are prepared with security but use it as a last resort.

    REAL Green seeks to triage out the unnecessary and embrace the best technologies of both the old and the new so this does not mean being the most technological. In many cases it means no tech or low tech. Most of the time it means a hybrid. All the time it means wise choices and good behavior. Yet the relative part of REAL Green kicks in with the understanding of the failures of human behavior both within and without. This means REAL Green is significantly about behavior as much as physical lifestyles. Inner attitudes are as much of REAL Green as what tech to use or not to use. If you can take the road of stoicism and live more Spartan but do this in context to your status quo position. Dramatic and drastic behavior can wreck years of planning and development. That said there are some who can go TRUE Green which is leaving the status quo completely closer to planetary harmony. Some of the young and unencumbered can do this. Some of the wealthy can buy it. Most will struggle with the task of living in both worlds but this struggle is enlightening and contributes to physical strength.

    REAL Green means good health as a basic to building your REAL Green monastery. I call it a monastery because one need only study the monasteries of the middle ages to get an idea of the changes needed. Monasteries were local and they embraced self-sufficiency. They also sought to live with the local political environment by yielding to greater powers. They were non-confrontational. They practiced a dedicated way of life. REAL Green in my case is pastoral. A excellent way to embrace REAL Green is a permaculture farm but this is not the only way. REAL Green is an add on to your existing lifestyle and your higher power belief. Be realistic most of us cannot leave what we have so adapt it. REAL Green seeks to connect what you already have to planetary and human realities. This is where the Deep Adaptation comes in. You are doing this because you acknowledge planetary and human decline. You embrace planetary and human succession instead of fighting it or denying it. If you do this the planet and the best of human behavior will support you.

    You also accept that pain and suffering will be apart of this so this is why you embrace a new stoicism based on planetary realities. You live Spartan because destructive change means less affluence. You beat the rush so you lose less. Those who have done the house cleaning will be far more able to save what is worth saving. Clear the deadwood out with triage efforts. This does not mean rejecting the fruits of consumerism. Consumerism is killing the planet but it is beyond your context. In your local you will collect all the old and new stuff of high value for your journey into the brave new world of decline. This is where the prepping occurs. The reason you will not embrace consumerism too much is REAL Green means avoiding clutter and distractions. In most cases you will not have the resources to indulge in the unneeded. You will also cast off the social narrative of unproductive leisure which tends to clutter life. Your REAL Green leisure is productive and related to building your monastery.

    Finally, with REAL Green Deep Adaptation you will realize that none of these efforts will save you from the macro situation of decline and decay. You acknowledge you are only as good as your local and when or if SHTF you will suffer the same consequences that your unprepared neighbor but likely less severe. There are no guarantees your efforts will matter. What matters is the meaning and enjoyment in the here and now and the understanding you have done all you can for yourself and your significant others. You then have the meaning to face death better. This leads to the understanding of the importance of your local. This means you will invest in your neighbors as best you can without coming out with who and what you are. Remember only a few can understand REAL Green Deep Adaptation. Most if they knew what you are doing will mock and belittle you as a cook. Not that this matters because you have found inner meaning. Where this remaining under the radar matter is your efforts to be below the purview of destructive forces. Those who broadcast they are preppers are a target when collapse occurs. In the end before your last breath if you have your faculties then meaning and the truth are what you want to take with you. You will also want to leave all your stuff to those who matter.

  12. Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 5:52 am 

    I dedicate the above two comment to JuanP who’s insane obsessions with censoring me have given me increased strength. JuanP get a life please. This forum can be a place of Deep Adaptation and the criticism there of. It is no place for mental illness and personality disorders of a selfish egotistical asshole. IOW you are ruining the whole forum experience to satisfy your personal obsessions and desires. The world does not revolve around you and until you realize this you will only ruin a good experience for others.

  13. Dave Thompson on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 6:01 am 

    The elephant in the room is human destruction of the food chain.

  14. Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 6:06 am 

    I post this to show the challenges of decoupling and degrowth. Humans are hopelessly conflicted politically:

    “Right-wing AfD continues to reject man-made climate change in environmental position paper”
    https://tinyurl.com/y3ymaqbg clean energy wire

    “German right-wing party Alternative für Deutschland (AfD) has presented an declaration on its environmental policy agenda stating that the influence of CO2 on global temperatures cannot be proven and carbon emissions reduction measures thus do nothing to protect the climate. At the presentation of the paper, environmental spokesperson of the AfD parliamentary group Karsten Hilse said the party does “not think that humans decisively influence the climate with their CO2 emissions”, and also “categorically rejects” the idea of a tax on CO2 emissions, which would only mean German citizens are “pillaged”. The declaration also expresses opposition to wind and solar power in Germany as they damage the country’s cultural landscapes and “native forests”, reports Susanne Götze in Spiegel Online. “We produce honest environmental protection, in contrast to the Greens [Green Party],” said Hilse. According to historian Nils Franke, guest lecturer at the University of Leipzig, the AfD paper is “deeply populist, nationalist and bears the traits of right-wing nature conservation ideologies,” he told Spiegel.”

  15. I AM THE MOB on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:12 am 

    Trump’s Antifa ban threat prompts social media backlash in Germany

    https://www.euronews.com/2019/07/29/trump-s-antifa-ban-threat-prompts-social-media-backlash-in-germany

  16. Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:28 am 

    Absolutely fucking amazing word salads by me above. Saved to my notes for my REAL Lame blog that I’ve been working so diligently on, that I don’t have the time to discuss everybody else’s opinions that I find so educating.

    stupid dumbasses

  17. I AM THE MOB on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:38 am 

    Notice that when you put kids together of different backgrounds..They don’t even understand what racism is? Which proves its not natural and its taught to them..Its a disease of the mind..Spread by stupid ignorant people who want to feel naturally gifted.

  18. Not Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:46 am 

    Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:28 am

  19. juanpee ID Fraud on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:52 am 

    Not Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 7:46 am

  20. Sissyfuss on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 8:18 am 

    Degrowth is baked into the cake but it is Gaia who will do the frosting. That which is unsustainable will not sustain. The harvest cycle disruption is becoming most prominent even in its incipient stage. The disconnect between economy and ecology exists only in the mind of modern man, not in physical reality. This clusterf#%k is starting to ruin the taste of the popcorn. Pass the opioids.

  21. The real Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 8:25 am 

    Good post Sis, but not great like my word salad essays above. I won’t be copying and pasting your comment onto my REAL Lame blog.

  22. Not Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 9:03 am 

    The real Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 8:25 am

    Good post Sis, but not great like my word salad essays above. I won’t be copying and pasting your comment onto my REAL Lame blog.

  23. Not the real Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 11:23 am 

    Not Davy on Tue, 30th Jul 2019 9:03 am

  24. Dredd on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 11:03 am 

    “Never-ending Growth?”

    The end of civilization as we know it is based on high liquid growth (The Less Well Known Areas of Sea Level Change).

  25. Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 11:38 am 

    Could I ask you guys for a favor and get you to rate my word salads on a scale of 1 to 3? As you all know, in addition to being the most intelligent thing here, I am also the most humble and I like to get feedback that is both simple and not complicated at the same time. Feedback will help me continue to get up at 5am(bayou time) to produce massive walls of text no one ever reads, that are of the highest caliber. My REAL GREEN are my premiere word salads, even more so that my zero-hedge cut and pastes, and I’d like to know what you think to help improve them going forward.

    Here is the rating scale. Simply assign a numerical rating for both of todays REAL GREEN word salads in the comments below. One number will do for both. The scaling sytem I created is both simple and requires little to no thought.

    Rank my word-salads, choose one.

    1 – Incredible
    2 – Awesome
    3 – Amazing

    Thanks guys. And no fuck-nuts need apply. I don’t make my word salads for you dumbasses anyhow. I make them for adults and not dirty liberal beach-boy illegal immigrants like juanpee.

  26. juanpee has lost his shit on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:13 pm 

    Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 11:38 am Could I ask you guys for a favor”

  27. Deport JuanP on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:14 pm 

    Do you guys realize JuanP is actually an undocumented illegal stealing honest American’s money. Deport the bastard.

  28. More Insane Davy Sock Puppetry on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:24 pm 

    juanpee has lost his shit on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:13 pm

    Deport JuanP on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:14 pm

  29. The real Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:34 pm 

    JuanP is documented and legally entitled to live in the USA. He has also been paying taxes to the US ZOG for over 20 years. The volunteer community work he does is a tremendous asset to the American people. Whoever wrote the post above under the sock puppet ‘Deport JuanP’ is a loser and a compulsive liar, and should be kicked out of my country immediately, and permanently.

  30. JuanPee is a liar on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 1:19 pm 

    The real Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 12:34 pm JuanP is documented and legally entitled to live in the USA. He has also been “

  31. Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 1:24 pm 

    I am juanpee and juanpee is me. Does that make me crazy? I’m real confused.

  32. shut up luantic on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 2:41 pm 

    Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 1:24 pm
    I am juanpee and juanpee is me. Does that make me crazy? I’m real confused.”

  33. Not juanpee on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 4:04 pm 

    What’s a luantic Davy?

  34. Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 4:18 pm 

    I’m a luantic not juanpee. Hey wait a minute…..I am not juanpee and not juanpee is me. WTF??????

  35. illegal undocumented juanpee fraud on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 4:23 pm 

    Davy on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 4:18 pm
    I’m a luantic not juanpee. Hey wait a minute…..I am not juanpee and not juanpee is me. WTF??????

  36. More Documented Davy Sock Puppeering on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 4:27 pm 

    illegal undocumented juanpee fraud on Wed, 31st Jul 2019 4:23 pm

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