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Why Don’t We Have Nuclear Fusion Power Yet?

Fusion power is supposed to save us from fossil fuels, so when is nuclear fusion going to be a viable option and why has it been so elusive? Hosted by: Stefan Chin SciShow has a spinoff podcast! It’s called SciShow Tangents. Check it out at https://www.scishowtangents.org



47 Comments on "Why Don’t We Have Nuclear Fusion Power Yet?"

  1. Cloggie on Fri, 8th Feb 2019 10:29 pm 

    Because it’s full of sh#t that’s why. but a nice little cash cow to keep scientists employed for decades

  2. makati1 on Fri, 8th Feb 2019 11:29 pm 

    BINGO! Yep, Cloggie it’s make-work for useless degrees.

  3. Cloggie on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 3:42 am 

    I did not write that rubbish above.

    New e-SUV from China. New aspect: batteries are changed rather than charging:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KevnfKsUvhs

    (go to 3:45 for a battery replacement)

    http://www.spiegel.de/auto/aktuell/nio-es8-erste-fahrt-im-wechselakku-auto-aus-china-a-1245012.html

    For the record, I do not believe in this concept or batteries for that matter. The Japanese are right, it should be hydrogen. The 2020-Olympics are going to be the hydrogen Olympics, with all the transport and other energy aspects around the event in hydrogen rather than fossil fuel.

    I will be updating this post…

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2019/02/09/dutch-20-mw-akzo-gasunie-hydrogen-electrolysis-initiative/

    …later today about the many brand new hydrogen developments in the Netherlands. With a North Sea energy province at our door step that is larger than the country itself, plastered with 12 MW wind turbines, we can become a major hydrogen exporter to the rest of Europe.

  4. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 5:01 am 

    “For the record, I do not believe in this concept or batteries for that matter. The Japanese are right, it should be hydrogen. The 2020-Olympics are going to be the hydrogen Olympics, with all the transport and other energy aspects around the event in hydrogen rather than fossil fuel.”

    I don’t think it should be an either or especially if batteries keep making strides in performance. Hydrogen is not cheap in a holistic sense yet. I would think a hybrid of hydrogen and batteries is an approach also. The Chevy volt was a great example of a battery with hybrid generator.

  5. Free Speech Message Board on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 5:29 am 

    Americans used to believe in freedom.

    http://www.naplesnews.com/story/opinion/contributors/2017/07/01/commentary-land-free-and-home-brave/427082001/

    Now Americans would need to be mentally ill to think tyranny won’t get worse.

    Who would have thought in 1980 that the USA would soon have curfews, gun bans, NSA wiretapping, checkpoints, forfeiture, the end to the right to silence, free speech bans, torture, kill lists, no fly lists, searches without warrants, private prisons, mandatory minimums, 3 strikes laws, DNA databases, CISPA, SOPA, NDAA, IMBRA, FBAR, FATCA, TSA groping, secret FISA courts, and Jade Helm?

    During the Wild West in the US, everyone could carry guns, businesses were not licensed, no one had Social Security numbers, there were no sales, income, or property taxes, and drugs, alcohol, smoking, gambling, and prostitution were legal.

    There was little government, yet people lived and had freedom.

    http://www.harrybrowne.com/GLO/DrugWar.htm

    The government today is regulating every area of everyone’s life.

    The government wants to tell us what to do, what to think, where to live, how to live, what to wear, and what to eat. Saying you live in a free country with a straight face is difficult when everything is illegal.

    How can anyone take the moral high ground on anything when we are all criminals?

    In the US, your body is not your body, your property is not your property, and your kid is not your kid.

    Government is not the solution to problems. Government IS the problem.

    Alcohol prohibition failed. The Soviet Union failed.

    http://www.bradford-delong.com/2008/02/why-the-soviet.html

    Anyone who supports the police state is just a tool for the elites.

    Too bad Americans are surrendering liberty so easily.

    Why did the USA fight for freedom against the British, Hitler, and Saddam if America just ended up as a police state? All those American soldiers died in vain.

    The elites are trying to weaken and divide Americans by race, gender, handicap, penalizing hard work, encouraging welfare use, and pushing immorality while using fear, terrorism, drugs, false flags, discrimination, hate speech, Russian propaganda, and fake news laws, and wars on cash to make Americans give up their free speech rights, religious freedom, guns, right to silence, privacy, property, right to trials, freedom from torture, and the freedom from extrajudicial assassination.

    https://fee.org/articles/the-growth-of-government-in-america/

    Those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it.

    Things fall apart. The world has turned upside down now.

    Clean-cut, moral Americans who were taught to hate Communism, be hard-working, be responsible, respect free speech, support religious freedom, defend gun rights, oppose warrantless searches, seizures, and torture must be in a state of shock to watch the USA become Socialist. How could Americans go to the same schools and have such different beliefs?

    If you work today, you will owe taxes that will fund wars, debt, and tyranny.

    The elites and the media are pushing wars, tyranny, debt, illegal immigrants, offshoring, moral decay, and Socialism. Americans pretend everything is fine and put their heads in the sand to ignore the obvious decline.

    One day Americans may wake up and wonder how bankers can commit fraud and be rewarded with billion dollar bailouts instead of being jailed. Americans may ask why they should obey the law when the government and illegal immigrants don’t. Why can the police kill unarmed Americans, the CIA can torture, officials can lie to Congress, IRS agents can target conservatives, the FBI can run child porn sites, and the EPA can pollute, but Americans can’t?

    Angry Americans might start resisting by lying on government forms, getting fake ID’s, failing to pay taxes, not buying insurance, not wearing seatbelts, not registering guns, not getting driver licenses, and smoking in public.

    The government will retaliate by increasing punishments with higher fines, longer sentences, and more draconian laws.

    Americans might push back with sniper attacks on police checkpoints and terrorism.

    As the economy dies due to debt and regulations, the elites will try to pump up the economy by nationalizing companies and outlawing private property and try to distract Americans by launching WWIII with North Korea, Iran, Russia, and China.

    Americans will eventually end up in the concentration camps.

    How many Americans will wish that they had spoken out against the police state earlier as they get pushed into the ovens?

    Americans deserve everything coming to them.

    How can Americans look in the mirror today without feeling shame and disgust?

    Those who do not learn from the mistakes of history are doomed to repeat them.

    Wake up.

    Think.

    Pass the word.

  6. twocats on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 5:39 am 

    Davy – I agree that globally there wouldn’t need to be a either/or on battery vs hydrogen, but regionally it would be very inefficient to install both infrastructures simultaneously.

    in fact, having some areas develop hydrogen and other using batteries would heavily ease the concern over lithium reserves, etc.

    there is still a slight chance – probably less than 10% – that the world could pull off a limited technological hang-out of some of these systems for a couple decades, maybe even to 2075. Ideally, about 15 – 25% of the population would be eradicated to ease global resource pressures.

  7. Chrome Mags on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 5:52 am 

    If fusion energy attempts have failed to successfully achieve a net energy return so far, after all the years of research and development with billions of dollars of investment put into them, why would we expect it to in the future? If all they’ve been able to achieve is a very brief period of fusion, then why are they so sure they can get it to be continuous? Maybe those are the questions that should be asked.

  8. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 5:53 am 

    “Davy – I agree that globally there wouldn’t need to be a either/or on battery vs hydrogen, but regionally it would be very inefficient to install both infrastructures simultaneously.”
    I am talking a Chevy Volt type vehicle with Hydrogen and Electric. This way Hydrogen infrastructure does not have to be built to the degree ICE infrastructure is today. Hydrogen is not cheap to move around. A hybrid system like the Volt would have wonderful range and versatility.

    “in fact, having some areas develop hydrogen and other using batteries would heavily ease the concern over lithium reserves, etc.”
    In the coming decline and decay of our civilization we are going to need a little of every technology including ICE. We will not have the resources in my opinion to have a shiny new future of tech wonders the cornucopians proselytize.

    “there is still a slight chance – probably less than 10% – that the world could pull off a limited technological hang-out of some of these systems for a couple decades, maybe even to 2075. Ideally, about 15 – 25% of the population would be eradicated to ease global resource pressures.”
    I think we will do better than that in some locations. I do agree population especially in 3rd world is set to fall because of food and water issues complicated by climate and energy issues. The 1st world is set to have more 3rd world areas as affluence declines.

  9. JuanP on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 6:06 am 

    Delusional Davy “I do agree population especially in 3rd world is set to fall because of food and water issues complicated by climate and energy issues.”

    You have no idea how things will play out, nobody does. You simply believe what you need to keep supporting your deluded mind. Many parts of the First World will fare worse than many parts of the Third world. Besides, those worlds are esentially blending. Almost every country has developed, developing, and underdeveloped areas. Look at St. Louis in the heart of the USA. What world does it belong to? It changes from one neighborhood to another, just like the rest of your devolving country, much of which is already Third World.

  10. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 6:16 am 

    “You have no idea how things will play out, nobody does.”
    Then shut up stupid and quit blabbering what you think is coming. I offer possibilities you act like you know how things will end i.e. with the destruction of the US.

    “Many parts of the First World will fare worse than many parts of the Third world. Besides, those worlds are esentially blending.”
    Not shit stupid. Pretty much anyone can figure that out.

    “Almost every country has developed, developing, and underdeveloped areas. Look at St. Louis in the heart of the USA. What world does it belong to? It changes from one neighborhood to another, just like the rest of your devolving country, much of which is already Third World.”
    DUH, look at the big brain on juanpee. LOL

  11. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 6:50 am 

    “Tesla & Mercedes Talking About Electric Van Collaboration”
    https://tinyurl.com/yysls9cu

    “Be that as it may, CNBC reports that Zetsche told Bloomberg on February 7 there is a possibility of the two companies cooperating in some capacity on a planned electric version of the Mercedes-Benz Sprinter van. “These talks are happening,” Zetsche said, but added the “outcome is open.” Mercedes has just spent $500 million to expand its factory in South Carolina to build more Sprinter vans and has snagged an order for 20,000 of them from Amazon. The Sprinter is available in a dizzying array of chassis lengths, roof heights, powertrain options, and interior fitments in order to meet the requirements of delivery companies and tradespeople. In all, some 1,700 combinations are possible. Many of those vans are powered by diesel engines. As much as Tesla is doing to electrify the private passenger car segment of the transportation sector, medium- and light-duty trucks are responsible for more emissions over the course of a year than passenger cars. Electrifying the Sprinter vans is already underway, but a link up with Tesla could accelerate that process. Zetsche also said Tesla might be interested in using electric Sprinter vans for its on the road service vehicles.”

  12. JuanP on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:04 am 

    Delusional Davy “Not shit stupid. Pretty much anyone can figure that out.”

    What a great point you made, Davy! How could I possibly refute it? ROFLMFAO!

  13. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:04 am 

    “Another Way To Power Electric Cars: “Refillable Technology”
    https://cleantechnica.com/2019/02/08/another-way-to-power-electric-cars-refillable-technology/

    “Range and recharging times remain the primary concerns for people who don’t know the difference between an electric car and a toaster. The debate continues to rage between advocates of battery electric cars and those who favor hydrogen fuel cell vehicles, with “fool cell” proponents pointing out it only takes a few minutes to pump hydrogen into a storage tank while it can take several hours to recharge the battery of an electric car. There is some truth to that claim, although it totally overlooks the reality that most electric cars recharge in the garage overnight and never need to visit a charger during a normal day of driving. Now, researchers at Purdue University say they have a new way of powering electric cars, which they call “refillable technology.” It’s a little like a redox flow battery with one important difference. Instead of using two liquid electrolytes, one negative and one positive, it uses one liquid and a sacrificial anode that is replaced at 3,000 mile intervals. They claim it takes about 5 minutes to fill the onboard storage tank and about 15 minutes to replace the anode. “The jump that this technology has made in the past two years is a testament to its value in changing the way we power our vehicles,” says John Cushman, a professor at Purdue. “It’s a game changer for the next generation of electric cars because it does not require a very costly rebuild of the electric grid throughout the US. Instead, one could convert gas stations to pump fresh electrolyte and discard depleted electrolyte and convert oil changing facilities to anode replacing stations. It is easier and safer to use and is more environmentally friendly than existing battery system.” The technology has been undergoing testing and development in golf carts and fork lifts since 2017, according to Phys.org.”

  14. JuanP on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:06 am 

    Davy is triggered! We can expect him to revert to his sock puppeteering and identity theft or switch identities at any minute now! ROFLMFAO!

  15. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:09 am 

    “First Electric Step Van From Motiv Power Systems”
    https://tinyurl.com/y4acbt4r

    “California-based Motiv Power Systems has delivered the first of seven fully electric mid-sized delivery vans to the United States Postal Service this week as part of a California Air Resources Board-funded program. The new rigs utilize Ford’s E-450 platform, which get injected with a dose of modernity in the form of Motiv’s electric powertrain. Motiv is the leading supplier of electric medium-duty fleet chassis so it knows a thing or two about how to do it right. That leadership role was built on years of experience in the space, giving the United States Postal Service (USPS) confidence to move forward with the pilot, knowing that Motiv would build a robust electric powertrain that would hold up in the rain, sleet and snow that the USPS regularly runs its vehicles around in.”

  16. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 8:13 am 

    You do make one good point Juan.

    I want my mommy!

  17. Triggered Juanpee identity theft on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 8:22 am 

    LMFAO at the low IQ activity of triggered juan. I knew if I kicked your lame ass long enough you would start the identity theft.

  18. Davy on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 8:32 am 

    MOMMY!

  19. Anonymouse on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 6:23 pm 

    Screw fusion power, I already got all the electricity I need. I was promised flying cars, robot maids, and vacations on the moon. Its almost 2020 and all I have, is roads clogged haha, with oil-burning cars (that dont fly, they actually crawl along very slowly), stupid ‘robot’ vacuum cleaners that are actually slower and do a worse job than doing it myself, and watching 2001: A Space Odyssey (again) for my ‘moon vacations’.
    The one thing I do have, is a world-wide internet, where every retard and dumbass with a worthless opinion and ‘facts’ they pull out of their ass, can share their fact-free alternate realities with the rest of us 24/7. So, I guess it kind of balances out….

    So, Cloggfraudretard, why don’t ‘they’ have flying cars and moon vacations for me? I was promised all these things and MOAR, by now. I am sorely disappointed with jew, I mean you. Or, do I just have wait till 2030? Will they be ready by then?

    Whatever you pull out of your ass as a reply, make sure you include web-links that dont support any of your dumbass assertions and whimsical fantasies. After all, no cloggiefraud spam is complete without web-links(tm). Dont worry if they don’t actually support whatever you come up with-they wont.

  20. JuanP on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:24 pm 

    Anon “stupid ‘robot’ vacuum cleaners that are actually slower and do a worse job than doing it myself …”

    I take issue with that, dear associate! I have owned six iRobot Roombas over the past 16 years, and I love them. They keep my home spotless and all I do is empty the filters once a week. I start them once or twice a day as I leave my home and they mostly dock themselves when they are finished. I drag in a lot of mud and weeds on my boots from the farms and gardens I visit. They are not perfect, every now and then they fail to dock and I have to invest five seconds doing that, and you need to have a floor, home, and furniture that are compatible, but in my single level, ceramic tile floored condo with compatible furniture (they can get stuck on furniture if the clearance is just wrong) they work great. I did replace a shelf, sofa, and two armchairs when I started using them. You can’t have any bundles of cables on the floor, either. But, once you’ve Roomba proofed your home they do work great and, though they are not cheap, I am very happy with my return on investment since they’ve saved me hundreds of hours.

  21. JuanP on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:29 pm 

    Delusional Davy “LMFAO at the low IQ activity of triggered juan. I knew if I kicked your lame ass long enough you would start the identity theft.”

    For the umpteenth time, Exceptionalist, I do not engage in stealing identities, you do! Stop projecting your mental problems onto others, fool! You will never get better if you don’t admit that you have many problems first, and face them like a man. Stop being a coward and grow a pair, fool!

  22. NATHANPHILLIPSAKAfmr-paultard on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:59 pm 

    juan why u botherin supertard?

  23. Anonymouse on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 8:52 pm 

    Ok, fine!

    I welcome our Roomba overlords and look forward to preforming basic preventive maintenance on their wheels and vacu-suck attachments, as well as changing their filters as per the Roomba-nets directives and readmes. And I would also like to stress, should any of my fellow humans consider taking actions detrimental to Roombas benevolent rule, I can totally be relied to keep Roomba informed of whatever they are plotting and planing. All I ask in return, is an increase in my protein paste ration, which I dont think is too much to ask for. And maybe, slightly reduced work schedule, say, 18 hours a day.

  24. More Davy Sock Puppetry on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 10:12 pm 

    NATHANPHILLIPSAKAfmr-paultard on Sat, 9th Feb 2019 7:59 pm

  25. More JuanP bullshit on Sun, 10th Feb 2019 4:50 am 

    More Davy Sock Puppetry said NathanPhillipsAKAfmr-paultard (Associate) on Fri,…
    More Davy Sock Puppetry said NathanPhillipsAKAfmr-paultard on Sat, 9th Feb 2019…
    More Davy Sock Puppetry said NATHANPHILLIPSAKAfmr-paultard on Sat, 9th Feb 2019…

  26. twocats on Sun, 10th Feb 2019 8:00 am 

    Davy – in response to the Fuel Cells vs Batteries I think you might have a gap in your understanding of how fuel cells work.

    https://afdc.energy.gov/fuels/hydrogen_infrastructure.html

    Very first sentence, from the Dept. of Energy, “The availability of stations providing reasonably priced hydrogen in places where vehicles will be deployed remains a key challenge to the adoption of this technology.”

    So my point is that if you try and build parallel systems in the same city you are going to end up with Gas stations, Battery Stations, and Hydrogen Pump stations.

    You of all people should realize we need to work smarter, not harder, and conserve precious resources and not build out multiple infrastructures just to move from place to place.

  27. Cloggie on Sun, 10th Feb 2019 8:54 am 

    So my point is that if you try and build parallel systems in the same city you are going to end up with Gas stations, Battery Stations, and Hydrogen Pump stations.

    You of all people should realize we need to work smarter, not harder, and conserve precious resources and not build out multiple infrastructures just to move from place to place.

    With hydrogen storage technology like this, you can store 1 m3 of “fuel” in your back yard shed as if it was washing powder:

    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2019/01/27/nabh4-the-vice-admiral-has-a-message-for-dutch-parliament/

    No need to roll out nation-wide network of fuel stations. Just call the energy company once a year and they will deliver 1 m3 of fuel in big plastic bags as if it were compost for your garden.

  28. twocats on Sun, 10th Feb 2019 7:56 pm 

    Blog posts are great – but not for launching a national energy strategy. I cited DOE. You cite a backyard science experiment from a hospital technician. no thanks.

  29. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 4:49 am 

    Anyway back to the topic. These scientists get to play with big expensive toys all day and every once in a while they have to front the media and bring out the old we had it running for a nano second and in a decade or so we will have energy too cheap to meter.

  30. Davy on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 5:23 am 

    “So my point is that if you try and build parallel systems in the same city you are going to end up with Gas stations, Battery Stations, and Hydrogen Pump stations. You of all people should realize we need to work smarter, not harder, and conserve precious resources and not build out multiple infrastructures just to move from place to place.”

    It is how you look at what is coming. First hydrogen is not proven as an economical vector at the scale fossil fuels are at as much as our board techno-optimist cornucopians want to crow. This is less true of electric that is already being built out. With electric it is not proven we can go all electric/battery with transport or a transition but it is a valid transformation solution now. If nothing else we should have electric and batteries as part of the energy transformation.

    Hydrogen is at the point where laboratory work will start yielding some experimental efforts at the scale up of commercialization. This means in the reality of the here and now we need all of the above efforts including fossil fuels. It is call transformation for a reason and personally I am not sure a transition is in the cards. I want a transition to low carbon but want and reality are not the same. I would also mention that solar, wind, and other renewables have their place per where their best application are so why not hydrogen, fossil fuel, or electric especially in the transformation stage? If a transition is possible then yes we will need to focus on what will scale at the least expense and economies of scale are central to that. I feel all these energy sources and vectors will be needed and in some areas creative mixing is needed. I don’t think one way is the right way for the scale of what we are faced with at least in the beginnings of transformation.

  31. Davy on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 5:31 am 

    “South Africa Oil Discovery Could Be A Game-Changer”
    https://tinyurl.com/y59l3brl

    “One of the promising hotspots for oil and gas exploration drilling this year – South Africa’s offshore – has just yielded a massive natural gas and condensate find that could open a new exploration province for oil majors and change the energy fortunes of South Africa. France’s major Total said this week that it had made a significant discovery on the Brulpadda prospects off the southern coast of South Africa. “With this discovery, Total has opened a new world-class gas and oil play and is well positioned to test several follow-on prospects on the same block,” said Kevin McLachlan, Senior Vice President Exploration at Total. According to Total’s chief executive Patrick Pouyanne, the discovery could hold 1 billion barrels of oil equivalent of gas and condensate resources.”

  32. Antius on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 7:17 am 

    ” With hydrogen storage technology like this, you can store 1 m3 of “fuel” in your back yard shed as if it was washing powder:
    https://deepresource.wordpress.com/2019/01/27/nabh4-the-vice-admiral-has-a-message-for-dutch-parliament/
    No need to roll out nation-wide network of fuel stations. Just call the energy company once a year and they will deliver 1 m3 of fuel in big plastic bags as if it were compost for your garden.”

    Cloggie, I applaud your efforts to examine energy alternatives and I don’t wish to dampen your enthusiasm. But you really should research these things more thoroughly before you put them about. Here is an article on the topic of Sodium Borohydride:

    https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/Sodium_borohydride/

    Extract: ‘Sodium borohydride , also known as sodium tetrahydridoborate and sodium tetrahydroborate , [30] is an inorganic compound with the formula Na BH4. This white solid, usually encountered as a powder, is a versatile reducing agent that finds wide application in chemistry, both in the laboratory and on a technical scale. It has been tested as pretreatment for pulping of wood, but is too costly to be commercialized. [31] [5] The compound is soluble in alcohols and certain ethers but reacts with water in the absence of a base. [32]’

    Too costly to commercialise as a chemical feedstock in the pulping of wood. Doesn’t bode well for its use as a universal fuel does it?

    This document sheds a bit more light on the cost side of things:

    https://everipedia.org/wiki/lang_en/Direct_borohydride_fuel_cell/

    ‘Sodium borohydride costs US$500 per kg, but with borax recycling and mass production projected prices for the fuel are as low as US$10/kg. Sodium borohydride can already be purchased for as low as US$ 200 per kg from european eBay’s sellers [4]’

    The chemical is 11% hydrogen by weight, so even an optimistic future price of $10/kg (with borax recycling) would amount to a hydrogen storage cost of $95/kg. That’s $2.44/kWh. Not very promising. Reducing the fuel, will leave a residue of borax sludge which must be returned to the refinery for recycling. Another logistical problem and another cost driver.

    The chemical synthesis of this material is also somewhat complex:

    ‘Sodium borohydride is prepared industrially following the original method of Schlesinger: sodium hydride is treated with trimethyl borate at 250–270 °C.’

    That explains the costly part. Sodium hydride is produced by reacting sodium metal with hot hydrogen gas. Sodium metal is a very energy intensive product produced by direct electrolysis of sodium oxide within a substrate. The metal is explosive on contact with air and must be handled very carefully. Likewise tri-methyl borate is a precursor chemical that requires substantial energy input for its preparation. Synthesising Sodium Borohydride is expensive, energy intensive and complex.

    Moving on to safety. The compound is hygroscopic. It absorbs water from the air and decomposes releasing explosive hydrogen gas. It is also quite toxic, with the powdered form having an LD50 of 36mg per m3 of inhaled air. Explosive limits for the dust are not available, but anything that releases hydrogen gas on contact with water vapour will have low explosive limits in air.

    http://browardcentralscience.org/msds/s/sodiumborohydride.pdf

    So much for keeping it in your garden shed.

  33. JuanP on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 7:53 am 

    “the discovery could hold 1 billion barrels of oil equivalent of gas and condensate resources.”

    That is a nonevent. What they found is an insignificant amount of “oil equivalent of gas and condensate”, even if it was actual oil, which it is not, the amount is insignificant. The fact that they call this a “massive find” and “significant discovery” is a sign of how desperate the oil majors are to brainwash ignorant people into believing we don’t have a problem replacing reserves and everything is going to be peachy. I am surprised Davy would post this here where we all understand its lack of significance. Is your insanity reducing your capacity to think straight, Davy?

  34. Dredd on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 7:55 am 

    Contact your local time traveler to speed things up (Despotic Minority Does Time Travel).

    Time’s a wastin’ …

  35. Antius on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 8:17 am 

    Correct JuanP, though there is no need to slag off Davy just for posting an energy related link. A 1 billion barrel crude oil discovery would be about 12 days global consumption. Except this isn’t oil – it is condensate. It will produce gasoline and lots of LPG, not much diesel. And it is deep underground and offshore, making it expensive to extract. The correct way to interpret this discovery is that it may be a useful resource for South Africa over the next decade; but not a significant find at a global level. By comparison, Ghawar in Saudi is estimated to contain 70billion barrels of extractable oil and produces 5million barrels per day. And the oil is heavy sour, suitable for producing the diesel that powers the real economy.

  36. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 8:37 am 

    @Antius – that gardenshed remark would perhaps require some additional research, but regarding the cost of the hydrogen substrate, the inventor in his report to the Dutch government says domething different:

    http://www.h2-fuel.nl/en/h2fuel_pdf/independent-report-dutch-government/

    The cost for purchasing sodium borohydride consists of the cost of purchasing in China and the cost of transportation from China to the Netherlands in a 20-foot container. For large volumes (more than 20 tons), the cost is $ 1.00 per kilogram FOB China. At an exchange rate of € 0.89 per dollar, 1 kilogram of sodium borohydride costs € 0.89 per kilogram.

    Furthermore from the same link:

    Storing, producing and consuming hydrogen under atmospheric conditions reduces transportation and storage costs and requires no energy to compress hydrogen. There are also no security risks and no heavy-duty pressure tanks are required to store the hydrogen;

    Perhaps the garden shed idea is viable after all. But that is of secondary importance.

  37. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 8:53 am 

    @Antius – https://nj.gov/health/eoh/rtkweb/documents/fs/2063.pdf

    Borohydride is explosive if mixed with water/moist, but not if kept dry.

    Not sure why storing a jerrycan with gasoline in the shed would be less dangerous than storing borohydride in plastic bags.

  38. Davy on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 9:20 am 

    “The correct way to interpret this discovery is that it may be a useful resource for South Africa over the next decade; but not a significant find at a global level”

    I posted news and it becomes a statement of bias. I don’t recall a comment that accompanied it. I am dedicated to on topic energy references that’s what I contributed. The correct way to interpret this is these types of liquids are increasingly important to the global refinery complex as the cheap easy to get high quality oils of the world deplete. More and more refinery mixing will contribute to production efforts. More gas is going to be used worldwide as an alternative to oil.

  39. Antius on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 9:59 am 

    Here is an extract from a paper published in the International Journal of Hydrogen Energy. That’s about as good as it gets so far as technical provenance goes.

    https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0360319911021604

    ‘The world market price of sodium borohydride is about $50-55 per kg [9], and considering that to produce 1 kg of hydrogen the amount of sodium borohydride needed is 4.725 kg, the hydrogen price is about $236.4-$260 per kg, also taking into account the price of the reactor.’

    ‘In the first part of this paper, sodium borohydride was examined as a new method for hydrogen storage and transport. A brief overview was given of its production methods. In particular it can be stated that NaBH4 is a very good compound for hydrogen storage in terms of safety, weight and volume, but the production costs are too high for its use to become widespread. The electrochemical regeneration of NaBH4 from NaBO2 could overcome this drawback but, at present, experimental studies have given conflicting results about the way this reaction proceeds.’

    ‘Alternative solutions for reducing the production costs of sodium borohydride could lie in using excess, and therefore free, renewable energy, such as geothermal, hydroelectric or wind power, combined with some modifications of the traditional commercial production process. To this end further studies are required.’

    Bummer. Sodium Borohydride is affordable only if primary energy is free. Everything becomes cheap if primary energy is free.

    I previously calculated, using projected electrolysis cell stack cost estimates for 2030, taken from the same journal and a solar PV electric power cost of Euro-0.03/kWh; that the cost of hydrogen gas would be ~Euro-0.11/kWh at the cathode of the electrolysis cell. That amounts to Euro 4.3 per kg of hydrogen.

    This cost estimate was based upon record low cost solar PV power, in fairly optimal locations, using PV modules produced by state-owned Chinese enterprises and dumped on world markets at costs that the Chinese themselves have admitted are not sustainable. It also assumes reduction in electrolysis stack costs that may or may not be achievable. Time will tell.

    Of course, sodium borohydride already has applications and will continue to be used as a chemical feedstock in the future. So in this sense, it will be part of a hydrogen economy, if we choose to call it such. But at present, it doesn’t look good for more than niche applications, in which its chemical properties justify its expense.

    There are other storage options available of course, but these all have disadvantages of their own. Compression, liquefaction, metal reductions, etc. Methanol is personal favourite, largely because it is easily storable, transportable and compatible with existing IC engines, allowing it to be used in gas turbines and hybrid IC vehicles with minimal end-use technical development. But it will have cost structures of its own. To produce methanol we must react hydrogen with carbon monoxide in a chemical reactor. This involves more capital costs and more energy costs. Every energy transition sucks efficiency out of the process and adds operational and capital cost. Kaching! Kaching!

  40. Antius on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 11:38 am 

    “The cost for purchasing sodium borohydride consists of the cost of purchasing in China and the cost of transportation from China to the Netherlands in a 20-foot container. For large volumes (more than 20 tons), the cost is $ 1.00 per kilogram FOB China. At an exchange rate of € 0.89 per dollar, 1 kilogram of sodium borohydride costs € 0.89 per kilogram.”

    Something fishy is going on if these figures are remotely true. To produce 1 kg of hydrogen the amount of sodium borohydride needed is 4.725 kg. So 212 grams of H2 are needed to produce 1 kg of borohydride. If H2 production costs about €5/kg, then the hydrogen alone to produce the borohydride will cost €1/kg of product.

    But there are a lot of additional costs on top of that. The cost of producing sodium metal using electrolysis. The cost of making tri-methyl boride and sourcing the boron needed to make it. The capital and operating costs of the chemical plant needed to do all this. And then the transport costs associated with shipping it half way round the world from Shanghai to Rotterdam. A price of €10/kg I could stretch to believe. But €1/kg – I would eat my hat, if I had one! Either these figures are bogus, or they go a long way towards explaining why the Chinese borrow 30% of their GDP every year. They clearly do not care whether their industries are profitable, so long as they dominate the world and keep all of their people in work. I suspect the same is true for many other things they produce, like solar power equipment.

  41. Antius on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 11:47 am 

    Another extract from the same article that I quoted from before:

    ‘In the second part of this work, the traditional methods of hydrogen production, storage and transport were evaluated. It can be deduced from this comparison that the least expensive method of hydrogen production is the steam reforming of natural gas, but it is not possible to identify the least expensive method of storage and transport, because this aspect is very dependent on energy costs. In the USA, for example, where the cost of energy at commercial prices is $0.1027 per kWh, the least expensive method of hydrogen storage is as liquid hydrogen, transported by tube trailers. In Italy, however, where the energy cost for a small plant is €0.1224 per kWh, the least expensive method of hydrogen storage is as hydrogen gas at low pressure (75atm), transported via pipeline.’

    For storage and transport of hydrogen over short distances, compressed hydrogen appears to be the lowest cost option. As distance increases, the liquid phase appears to grow more attractive.

  42. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 11:59 am 

    The world market price of sodium borohydride is about $50-55 per kg [9]

    ??? That article if from 2011 and I don’t have (free) access to the full text.

    Note that the price from the article I linked to was related to 20 ton.

    Here is an offer for $800-1500 per ton at min. 25 ton purchase, which comes close to what the h2-fuel article says:

    https://www.alibaba.com/product-detail/99-High-Purity-and-Top-Quality_62000516126.html?spm=a2700.7724857.normalList.111.dc1d6205JPlmxU&bypass=true

    And again, the exact price is not that important because we are talking about a substance that is going to be reused/recycled quasi “ad infinitum”, hence with every cycle, the proportion of the cost of this powder to the total cost picture diminished, asymptotically to zero.

  43. Antius on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 12:15 pm 

    “And again, the exact price is not that important because we are talking about a substance that is going to be reused/recycled quasi “ad infinitum”, hence with every cycle, the proportion of the cost of this powder to the total cost picture diminished, asymptotically to zero.”

    Your question should be ‘how can the Chinese keep producing this stuff below cost ad infinitum’. The fact that boron may ultimately be recyclable helps reduce feedstock costs somewhat in the long run; but there are logistical costs associated with recycling too. Recycling boron will reduce some costs at the expense of others. It won’t bring feedstock costs to zero.

    Here and now, there is the question as to how the Chinese can produce this material for less than its energy cost. I am guessing they can’t. Just like they probably cannot keep producing solar panels at the prices they have been of late. As part of their 2020 initiative, they may be willing to take a loss on some products to ensure future dominance of the industry. Or maybe Alibaba is more about dumping excess stockpiles at a loss – they are offering batches measured in scores of tonnes after all. If you wanted regular deliveries of this stuff in real industrial quantities, it won’t be anywhere near that cheap because it cannot be.

  44. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 12:18 pm 

    In particular it can be stated that NaBH4 is a very good compound for hydrogen storage in terms of safety, weight and volume, but the production costs are too high for its use to become widespread.

    Garden shed alert!

    LOL

    Bummer. Sodium Borohydride is affordable only if primary energy is free. Everything becomes cheap if primary energy is free.

    That’s not what the article says. They say “excess energy”. Currently, at certain periods, Germany gives away renewable energy “for free” to neighboring states, because otherwise it would blow up their electricity grid. They would be forced to put the brakes on wind turbines. That’s what the authors probably mean with “free energy”. Energy available for storage, storage facilities that do not yet exists (sufficiently). Enter this hydrogen powder.

    I previously calculated, using projected electrolysis cell stack cost estimates for 2030, taken from the same journal and a solar PV electric power cost of Euro-0.03/kWh; that the cost of hydrogen gas would be ~Euro-0.11/kWh at the cathode of the electrolysis cell. That amounts to Euro 4.3 per kg of hydrogen.

    I would like to see that calculation. Your countryman from ITM (UK electrolyser company) suggest that electrolysis prices will come down from currently ca 1 cent/kWh to 0.5 cent by 2024 (from the top of my head). In the Sahara PV-kWh can be produced at less than 2 cent/kWh.

    1 kg H2 = 33 kWh = 66 + 16.5 = 82.5 cent per kilo, base price in 2024.

    Store it in sodium borohydride and nobody will ever complain about peak oil, energy crisis ever again.

    As I said earlier this year, if this is true, and I strongly suspect it is, you can only become a renewable energy Cornucopian.

    I am.

  45. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 12:26 pm 

    Or maybe Alibaba is more about dumping excess stockpiles at a loss

    Nobody in his right mind, with the intent of setting up a renewable energy base, will deal with the likes of Alibaba. You pick up the phone and call the mining company directly and order by the ship load.

  46. I AM THE MOB on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 2:20 pm 

    Democratic socialist Muslim attack Republicans over ties to Israel

    Ilhan Omar Tweets That U.S. Politicians’ Support for Israel Is ‘All About the Benjamins’
    https://www.haaretz.com/us-news/ilhan-omar-tweets-u-s-politicians-support-for-israel-is-all-about-the-benjamins-1.6920117

  47. Cloggie on Mon, 11th Feb 2019 4:37 pm 

    http://www.spiegel.de/politik/ausland/usa-ilhan-omar-entschuldigt-sich-nach-antisemitismus-vorwurf-a-1252783.html

    Muslim representative critisizes “Israel Lobby” (ZOG).

    Poor Jews, they thought they could use the darkies against whitey. That is going to backfire.

    In 2001 there was a smart Jew, Stephen Steinlight, who already warned this would happen:

    https://cis.org/Report/Jewish-Stake-Americas-Changing-Demography

    Reading the article is like reading Stormfront. Steinlight confirms everything right-wingers accuse Jews of: using immigration to their own advantage and to weaken white America.

    But Steinight disagrees about the wisdom of the strategy. These feeble whiteys are far easier to manipulate and kept under control than coloreds (compare the servitude of davy/siss with anonymouse and his “jewnighted snakes”).

    These Muslims are deeply antisemitic (they are good for something after all.lol). It was demonstrated again today. Good luck mr Soros!

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