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Orlov: Saving Face

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The Americans are finding out the hard way that a fact-free zone is not a comfortable place to inhabit. The initial knee-jerk allegations, voiced by Obama, by the screechy UN representative Samantha Power, by John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and any number of talking heads, were that the downing of flight MH17 was all Putin’s fault. These were swiftly followed by a complete and utter lack of official evidence of any Russian involvement but lots of strange, unexplained coincidences pointing to Ukrainian and American involvement. These were, in turn, followed by an uncharacteristically frank admission from US intelligence that there is no proof of Russian involvement. The newly installed Ukrainian oligarch-turned-president Poroshenko (code-name “Piglet”) switched from claiming that he had proof of Russian complicity to being very very quiet. Incompetently concocted fake “evidence” of this and that continues to appear on social media sites, only to be swiftly disproved. Once disproved, the fake evidence vanishes, only to be replaced by more of the same. The latest fake is of Russian artillery bombardment from across the border. All of this has added up to quite an awkward situation for the Americans. Barefaced lying may be fun and profitable, but it does not provide a solid foundation for foreign policy. Nobody wants to go down in history for blowing up the world over some fake Youtube videos.

The list of questions that demand answers is quite extensive. Why did the Ukrainians suddenly choose to activate their Buk M1 air defense system, with several rocket batteries and a radar, in Donetsk region, on the day of the crash? What was the Ukrainian Sukhoi-25 fighter jet (attested by numerous eye-witnesses) doing trailing after the Boeing? Why did Ukrainian air traffic control in Dnepropetrovsk redirect the flight to fly at a lower altitude and over the war zone? What were all those foreigners doing in the air traffic control center in Dnepropetrovsk right after the crash, and what happened to the flight control records they confiscated? What was the experimental US spy satellite doing flying over that exact spot at that exact moment? By the way, was anything interesting happening that day at the American drone base in Kanatov, in Dnepropetrovsk region, which, incidentally, is right on the flight path of MH17? (We know that it’s active; two of their drones have already been shot down by the rebels, one of which landed more or less intact, and the Russians are probably having fun tinkering with it.)

Some people are surmising that the crash was a failed false flag attack orchestrated by the Ukrainians with, at a minimum, American complicity. The idea, this version goes, was to pin the blame on the rebels and, by extension, on Russia, in order to escalate the conflict. This version of events may sound plausible to some people, because false flag operations are part of the standard American playbook. After all, there was that chemical attack in Syria which almost led to a US bombing campaign. The chemical attack was blamed on the Assad regime, but then it turned out to have been a false flag: it was made by the Syrian rebels, on Syrian rebels, with help from Saudi Arabia, in order to smear Assad and escalate the conflict. Russia was able to deescalate the conflict by persuading Assad to give up his chemical weapons stockpile. (It didn’t take much convincing, because Assad no doubt realized that this stockpile was more of a liability than an asset.) The Americans were livid; they had been itching to bomb Syria. Had they done so, the too-evil-for-al Qaeda “Caliphate” known as ISIS, which recently spilled out of Syria and rolled right across northern Iraq, would probably be enthroned in Damascus by now as well.

But in the case of flight MH17, the false flag theory rests on an untenable assumption: that the Ukrainians, if tasked with shooting it down, would in fact succeed in shooting it down. All previous evidence illustrates that when Ukrainians want to shoot down a plane, they may succeed in shooting down  a nursery school, a maternity ward, an apartment building full of elderly Ukrainians, but never a plane. Conversely, if Ukrainians set out to destroy a maternity ward or a kindergarten (as they are known to sometimes do) odds are that they will hit a Boeing. They inherited a now rather obsolete Buk M1 air defense system from the USSR, which, in skilled hands, is quite capable of shooting down a Boeing flying at cruising altitude, but you’d be wrong to think that they have figured out how it works. They held exactly one training exercise using this system, in 2001, and succeeded in… shooting down a Russian civilian airliner! There were no training exercises in using this system until… it was used to shoot down MH17! It was used in Georgia during the war of 2008 over South Ossetia, where it did shoot down four Russian military aircraft, but there it was commanded by American mercenaries of Polish descent. Ukrainians excell at robbing, selling out, dismantling and destroying their own country; but achieving a specific, precise result as part of a highly coordinated mission? Not so much. Case in point: some Australian and Dutch troops wanted to go and maintain security at the crash site, but couldn’t, because the Ukrainians chose the occasion of their arrival to attack some neighboring towns and villages. You’d think that they would treat the opportunity to get some NATO boots on the ground as a Godsend, and act accordingly, but such rational behavior would be, you know, un-Ukrainian. The proper thing for them to do is to go and strafe some nearby village, and get themselves ambushed and slaughtered to a man by an angry babushka with a Kalashnikov.

Once you discount the theory that the downing of MH17 was a highly orchestrated false flag operation, everything falls into place. Why did the Ukrainians deploy their Buk M1 batteries and radar in Donetsk region, even though there was no enemy for them to shoot at? Because they are idiots. Why was there a Ukrainian Sukhoi 25 jet fighter in the air there? Trailing behind passenger jets and using them as human shields is standard Ukrainian practice. Why did that fighter zoom up into the Boeing’s flight corridor and pop up on air traffic control radar at the exact time the Boeing was shot down? That’s a standard evasive maneuver: the pilot saw a missile being launched, and tried to get out of its way by aiming up. If he hadn’t done that, then the story would have been that Ukrainians shot down their own jet fighter as part of a successful (by Ukrainian standards) exercise, held in the vicinity of an international passenger flight just to spice things up. Why did Dnepropetrovsk APC redirect the flight over the war zone and the Buk M1 batteries? Because the Ukrainians had recently issued an order that closed the airspace over Donetsk, well below the plane’s cruising altitude and away from its flight path, but perhaps something was lost in translation to Ukraine’s wonderfully precise official language, and so the APC redirected the flight right over the closed airspace and told it to fly right above the minimum altitude. Why did the Ukrainians launch the rocket? Well, that was probably something like what happened in the movie The Three Stooges in Outer Space. The stooges find themselves inside a rocket. Moe gets hungry and pushes a button that he thinks says “LUNCH” except that it says “LAUNCH.” Hilarity ensues.

If that is what happened, then that’s really embarrassing, not just for the Ukrainians, for whom embarrassment has become something of a national sport, but for their self-appointed American minders. What’s making this situation even more difficult is that western news teams, following in the wake of the investigative teams visiting the crash site, got a chance to look at, and report on, the carnage and devastation perpetrated by the Ukrainians against their own people. Worse yet, the Ukrainian government, so carefully slapped together out of US State Department-approved dregs of Ukrainian society, has in the meantime come unstuck. The coalition goverment failed after a spectacular fistfight on the floor of the Supreme Rada, with the two rabidly nationalist parties walking out (OK, I won’t call them Nazi, but only today). Prime minister Yatsenyuk (who had been hand-picked for the job and nicknamed “Yats” by Victoria Nuland of the US State Department) has resigned. [Update: he changed his mind and decided to stay: or did his American handlers change his mind for him?] President Piglet is still there, but it’s unclear what it is he is doing. In fact, it is becoming unclear whether there even is a Ukrainian government; of late, the officials in Donetsk have been receiving very strange, barely coherent missives from Kiev, obviously written in American English and clumsily translated, then signed and stamped by some Ukrainian monkey to make them look slightly more legit. If the Ukrainian translators run away too, then the American minders will be forced to resort to using Google Translate, making it the world’s first experiment in governance through word salad.

The MH17 disaster and Eastern Ukraine are now front page news across the entire world. The circumstances of the crash are anything but clear, but it is clear that they are not what the Americans initially alleged. This they have already admitted. The Ukrainian government is in disarray bordering on nonexistence. The Ukrainian military is either kettled in traps of their own devising and suffering horrific losses, or blasting away at densely populated districts with heavy artillery and rocket fire. The Ukrainian economy is in freefall, with trade links to Russia severed and industry nearing standstill. The country is bankrupt and at the mercy of the IMF. If you feel that the several hundred lives lost aboard MH17 are a tragedy, then you should consider a larger number: 42 million. That’s the population of Ukraine minus Crimea (which will be fine) and that’s the number of lives at risk from civil war and economic collapse.

The best that the US can do in this situation is to bug out of Ukraine while continuing to babble incoherently. This shouldn’t be hard; bugging out and babbling incoherently are two things that the Americans are clearly still very good at; just look at Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.

club orlov



63 Comments on "Orlov: Saving Face"

  1. ronpatterson on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 12:12 pm 

    Orlov wrote: “John Kerry, Hillary Clinton, and any number of talking heads, were that the downing of flight MH17 was all Putin’s fault. These were swiftly followed by a complete and utter lack of official evidence of any Russian involvement but lots of strange, unexplained coincidences pointing to Ukrainian and American involvement.”

    Wow! Russia was not involved at all but it was a US – Ukrainian conspiracy that brought the plane down? Orlov has gone off the deep end. Or perhaps that’s where he always was.

  2. Northwest Resident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 12:25 pm 

    I think Orlov started off with a rational and logical analysis of collapse in the former USSR and how that might compare with an economic collapse in America and/or the Western world. Since then, to remain in the limelight and to provide regular chunks of red meat to his particular segment of adoring doomer fans, he has tended to pump out a lot of absurd anti-American diatribes and speculation — the same kind of crap that a lot of the right wing gold buying anti-American doomer websites/forums specialize in.

  3. Davy on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 12:49 pm 

    Orlov is like a sickness whose cure is as bad as the illness.

  4. J-Gav on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 1:33 pm 

    Not entirely in disagreement with the above comments but I do think Orlov makes a couple of valid points. Victoria (“Fuck Europe”) Nuland did boast about the billions she spent to get ‘regime change’ in Ukraine and install her (our) choice replacements. Yats and ‘the chocolate Piglet.’I don’t see how it’s deniable that that is what, directly or indirectly, has brought about the ensuing series of events. Russia’s great ‘crime’ at that time was simply insisting that it get paid for energy deliveries – as if any Western companies would settle for less?

  5. HARM on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 1:40 pm 

    If you think Orlov has gone off the deep end defending Russian “separatists” who quite clearly shot down flight M17 (despite his protestations, there is a *ton* of circumstantial evidence, despite all their crash site obstruction and tampering), take a gander at Raúl Ilargi Meijer over at Automatic Earth. I stopped going there after I realized that every other post since the crash was some variation on “It’s a Western conspiracy to blame Putin!”, or “False Flag attack by the CIA!”.

  6. Arthur on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 1:51 pm 

    One of the more surprising discoveries concerning the ‘peak oil community’ is that at the end of the day, Orlov is more Russian than that he is Jewish. This super hilarious anti-Ukrainian hit piece is clear evidence of that. However, in his zeal to insult Ukrainians he is betraying his judgment by assuming that Ukrainians are too stupid to shoot down a plane on purpose. Accidently yes, but not on purpose. That’s pushing a little. Clear evidence has emerged today that MH17 was machine-gunned by the trailing SU25.

    http://www.anderweltonline.com/wissenschaft-und-technik/luftfahrt-2014/shocking-analysis-of-the-shooting-down-of-malaysian-mh17/

  7. paulo1 on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 1:54 pm 

    I have always felt Orlov was full of shit, but worth listning to about collapse because he went through it. He probably should stay out of political analysis.

    I am waiting for the ATC tapes, though. There might have been a fighter in the vicinity and probably the rebels took a shot at it. And hit something else. Being Ukranian, rebels missing a target would fit with Orlov’s bias.

    Why does this person still have credibility and why are his articles posted here? Why did I waste time reading and responding? Lunch time reading, I suppose.

    Paulo

  8. Northwest Resident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 2:01 pm 

    Arthur — It is hard to argue with that evidence. Those are clearly bullet holes — I’d recognize them anywhere having shot up a few old abandoned cars in the past. Also, the grazing mark on the wing — what else could it be?

    I always figured that if the pro-Russian guys shot it down, then it was due to their not knowing that it was a commercial, not military jet.

    I always suspected that the Ukraine side, which is/was losing badly to the pro-Russian guys, had all the motivation to either direct that jet over territory that knew would probably get a missile launched at it, or to somehow manufacture an incident with that doomed passenger jet for propaganda value.

    Shocking analysis, indeed!

  9. Northwest Resident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 2:04 pm 

    Sub-note: Maybe the pro-Russians shot up that cockpit themselves once they reached the wreckage on the ground. What are the chances of THAT?

  10. Davy on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 2:10 pm 

    Sorry Art, how do we know the authenticity of the photo’s referenced? Some of the plane parts do not even look like they are from a 777 for example the last picture looks staged. How can you claim your propaganda machine is accurate and theirs is not? You are just assuming your people are honest and their people are falseflaggers. I am still on the fence. Last I heard is the rebels are laying mines around the plane. More bullshit MSM propaganda. It is getting deeper by the day on both sides.

  11. Arthur on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 2:22 pm 

    NRW, Davy, yes it is theoretically possible that rebels machine-gunned that piece of wreckage themselves, on the ground. But what is keeping Kiev from releasing cockpit conversations, just to silence people, open to false flag theories, like me? Professional forensic researchers should be able to come to final conclusions. Unfortunately, Kiev has turned the impact zone into a war zone, ignoring international pleas to the contrary. Wonder why that is?

  12. eugene on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 2:55 pm 

    I’m just tired of the “heil, heil
    goose stepping Americans” who believe the mass media propaganda. Orlov, at least, has some questions. Hard to find in America. Plus America doesn’t have a damn thing to say with our history of invasions, slaughters and inducing others to fight our wars.

  13. HARM on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 3:27 pm 

    @Arthur, I could be wrong, but wasn’t it the pro-Russian separatist rebels who held the crash site and prevented investigators’ access for the last 2 weeks? The Ukrainian Army just recently took captured the site as of this Monday, but they aren’t the ones who tampered with evidence and threatened reporters, no?

  14. dissident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 3:31 pm 

    ronpatterson, your opinion is a laugh riot. You go on about conspiracy theory tin foil but treat the patent tin foil from the White House as if it was some established fact. People with a functional brain want to see evidence to back up serious accusations and “gut feelings” are just not good enough. How does Putin benefit by ordering the plane to be shot down? How do the rebels (aka “terrorists”) benefit? Given the narrative the White House is pushing it is clear who is benefiting.

  15. banjo on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 3:34 pm 

    Americans are uncritical sheep. 911 false flag. WMD in Iraq. Belarus invades osettia and spun as Russia did it. Now your being sold a story of evil Putin again.

    Evil empire
    Saddam Hitler
    Axis of exil
    They hate our freedom. (While your freedoms ate being rolled up and away)
    Now Putin is Hitler Google Prince Charles flapping his gums on about this before MH17 and now
    Evil Putin aka Hitket has downed MH17

    If this is the American delusion God help the world because the Beacon of truth justice and freedom is no longer alive.

  16. dissident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 3:35 pm 

    HARM, please do some more research. The OSCE was at the crash site on July 18th. The 131 strong Malaysian inspection team was held up in Kiev by the regime on various pretexts of safety. Poroshenko promised to provide a 40 km radius non-combat zone around the crash site but his forces proceeded to shell towns that were closer than 20 km away. Your impression is formed based on the biased MSM coverage which insinuates a lot of things but never proves them. The MSM claimed that journalists were not allowed by the rebels to the crash site, yet it was journalists who were even going through luggage (see the Sky News apology).

  17. Davy on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 5:07 pm 

    Diss/Art/Harm, I am an American. I do not consider myself a normal American because I do not buy into the narrative that I was sold throughout my life. I have questioned everything. I am on the fence still. There are not enough facts in. I agree with Art and Diss. The Russians and Rebels have no gain in this “BUT” it could have been their screw up and now they are cowardly trying to distance themselves from it. This is still high on the list of possibilities. The false flag motive is right up there at the top of possibilities. I don’t think the American’s would partake in it. It is too terroristic of an act but I would not put it past the current regime in the Ukraine. This whole crisis has been full of smoke and mirrors. We are talking the best of the best here with deception. The best of the Russian and West’s security services are concentrated in a small area. This area is armed to the teeth. I feel personally with the facts I have seen I am still on the fence. I want to thank those of you here who have raised objections and presented information counter to the West’s MSM, especially Art and Diss. If there is one thing that upsets me in life it is lies. If this is a false flag and the highest levels of the administration were part of it I personally believe the POTUS should be impeached. So Banjo are all American’s sheep or just some?

  18. Northwest Resident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 5:17 pm 

    Americans in general are uncritical sheep. We can all agree on that. But there are plenty of exceptions as Davy exemplifies. Banjo, just one last thing to say to you: maaaaaaaaa bleet bleet bleet

  19. Steve on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 6:04 pm 

    What no sadomasochistic porn cartoon picture with this article….Now I am disappointed…..!!!!!!!!

  20. Steve on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 6:07 pm 

    I think I need to stay at zero hedge, there are too many idiots here that think there side tells the truth and the other side is lying…news flash!!! they are all a bunch of liars…you don’t get to the top by being nice honest guy..

  21. JuanP on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 6:33 pm 

    Davy, I don’t think that, if the downing of MH17 was a false flag operation by Ukraine, the POTUS or anyone close to him would be informed of this for plausible deniability reasons. I think it would be a CIA operative, on orders from one of those obscure characters ingovernment, in some bathroom in Kiev peeing and casually suggesting to the guy peeing next to him, who just happens to be the right person to make the decision for the job, the idea as a way to deter the rebels from shooting down Ukrainian aircraft that have been going down big time in the past weeks and deter the Russians from providing support to the rebels..
    I don’t think President Obama would condone something like this. He would be told after the fact that the plane went down and we don’t know who did it or maybe it was Kiev forces, and we need to blame the Russians immediately, and he would go ahead with that.

  22. Keith_McClary on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 6:36 pm 

    ronpatterson –
    Did you believe all the Iraq war lies? Or the Vietnam lies, if you go back that far?

  23. JuanP on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 6:38 pm 

    In this, I agree with NWR, there are other people making these decisions, and characters like Obama, McCain, Kerry, romney are all scared puppets.

  24. Davy on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 6:45 pm 

    True Juan, I got a little excited with all the talk in the news about the House doing a impeachment lite. Yet, Juan this world is coming apart at the seems. Everyday that passes leaves me less trustful of anything in this late stages of BAU. If you ever watch Frontline you will see both POTUS lying to the American public over NSA revelations. Lies multiply and become normalized as time goes by. So, Juan, what is one to think in the new normal.

  25. JuanP on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 7:04 pm 

    Davy, thanks for the recommendation. I am looking for new news sources because I no longer believe much in most of the ones I used to go to. Added Frontline to my bookmarks, and they have a lot of old programs online, so I can catch up with my favorite subjects. Good video sources are the hardest to find, it is all lies everywhere. I am ashamed at how Obama and Kerry have been obviously lying later about a lot of things, it’s become a grotesque spectacle to watch.

  26. rockman on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 7:04 pm 

    Maybe some day credible evidence will point to the responsible party. I’ll be surprised if it’s proven a civilian aircraft was intentionally shot down. As sad as the event might be it does fall into the category of “sh*t happens”. Just like what happened when the USS Vincennes shot down an Iranian civilian passenger jetliner over the Persian Gulf on 3 July 1988, killing all 290 civilians on board (including 38 non-Iranians and 66 children). The significant difference between the two events was that the Iranian passenger jet wasn’t flying over an active battlefield with a well documented deployment of weapon systems capable of taking down any aircraft.

    Which brings up what I consider too little attention paid to the guilt of the Malaysian airline. The shoot down in the Ukraine and over the Persian Gulf may have been unfortunate accidents. But MA scheduling their aircraft to fly over a very active warzone containing numerous SAM’s controlled by all the belligerent parties wasn’t an accident. It was intentional on their part and done to save some jet fuel. And their anticipated safety margin: some assurance from someone, who I still haven’t seen proof of exactly who it was, that guaranteed such a rule of engagement. And the alleged ROE: only aircraft flying below 32,000′ would be targeted so MA scheduled their aircraft to fly at 33,000′. So a PLANNED 3% margin of error separated life from death for the passengers???

    The party who fired the SAM they should pay some significant damages to those families even if it’s proven to be an accident. OTHO I think the airline should be crucified financially. They didn’t put the aircraft in harms way by accident. It was done intentionally for just one reason…to save some money. The penalty should be high enough to scare the crap out of every airline in the world so none of them make such a profit motivated decisions in the future.

  27. JuanP on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 7:10 pm 

    Rock, I agree. I have said before that it is hard to believe that plane was there. I think Malaysia Airlines will lose a criminal negligence and culpability suit and be forced into bankruptcy, but in today’s world you never know. How stupid was having that plane there? Who made that call? Was the pilot doing it against his will afraid to lose his job? What was he thinking?

  28. Keith_McClary on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 7:35 pm 

    Michael Bociurkiw, a monitor with the Organization for Security and Cooperation has been at the site since it was still smoking. Another view of the holes is shown in this 7 minute video.
    http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/malaysia-airlines-mh17-michael-bociurkiw-talks-about-being-first-at-the-crash-site-1.2721007
    He also thinks they are bullet holes, although he does not claim to be an expert.

    Northwest Resident- can you tell bullets from shrapnel? What caliber?

  29. Davy on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 7:50 pm 

    Rock, you are talking what one would agree is common sense, rational, and balanced. What has me concerned as I do my daily research is what appears to be a world spiraling out of control. I am talking everywhere from social issues, to the financial markets, politics, and international relations. These basics of our human organization one would hope to find some stability to address the multitude of predicaments I call the “Mega” Predicaments we are facing. Instead we are seeing a real unwind of stability in the core structures of our lives from the local to the global. This is calling into question all those normal conditions we have grown up with. Rock, can we really fully rely on past thinking in what appears to be a new normal. A new normal where increasingly right is wrong and wrong is right. I am wondering if we are entering a terminal phase of BAU where what was normal is over and what is coming is an unravel or the beginning of social chaos. This could be a product of too much research on my part. I do agree this is a danger of intense study of current events. I can’t help watching the world with fascination and awe because this is the most amazing time in the history of humans. We are global and it will most likely never happen again.

  30. bobinget on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 9:02 pm 

    The sad truth, most Russians believe Putins lies.

  31. Northwest Resident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 9:14 pm 

    Keith_McClary — Could be shrapnel. Could be a fake picture. Could be anything. But from the roundish and relatively same-sized holes I saw in that pic, I would guess bullet holes. But is that a pic of the actual downed airliner cockpit? No idea. Nothing but lies and misinformation and propaganda surrounding this downed airliner — that’s all we know for sure.

  32. rockman on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 9:32 pm 

    NR – I hate to jump in on a subject I don’t know a great deal about. But I do know some SAM’s are loaded with packets of steel balls. This gives a more predictable shrapnel field. Don’t know if the systems over there have this capability. But I do know a bit about ballistics and if competent analysts were allowed a thorough search (before anyone screwed with the site) I suspects some clear determination might have been developed. But I also expect that window of opportunity has long passed.

  33. Makati1 on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 9:40 pm 

    Orlov is spot on with his analysis of the situation. A lot of denial from the Western peanut gallery, but that changes nothing. They are in denial of most facts that don’t jive with their ‘blindly patriotic’ views. The “Hate Russia” indoctrination is too deeply entrenched in their minds to be changed by the facts of today.

    “Duck and Cover!”

    Especially like his parting shots…

    “The best that the US can do in this situation is to bug out of Ukraine while continuing to babble incoherently. This shouldn’t be hard; bugging out and babbling incoherently are two things that the Americans are clearly still very good at; just look at Afghanistan, Iraq and Libya.”

  34. rockman on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 9:42 pm 

    Davey – “…is what appears to be a world spiraling out of control”. Which is why I sometimes get frustrated when too much emphasis is placed on PO dates, is “condensate” really oil, what’s the URR for the Eagle Ford Shale, etc. Not that these can’t be interesting “academic” discussions…but…

    But the real impact of PO is suffering and, more commonly today, blood. I appreciate this is a very unpleasant aspect to bring into the PO discussion and I tend to avoid it as often as possible. But IMHO it is the most important aspect of PO.

    And now for a strong nightcap to help purge such thoughts so I can sleep. LOL.

  35. Keith_McClary on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 9:51 pm 

    Northwest Resident- This is an OSCE guy who was first on the site. I don’t know if he took that picture but I think he would know if it was genuine. I assume they took lots of pictures which will be available to investigators. Pretty hard to fake all those, even if you don’t trust the OSCE.

  36. MKohnen on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 10:16 pm 

    I can buy that the Ukrainians shot down MH17 probably better than I can believe it was the insurgents. That being said, I think waiting to hear what comes out of the various investigations is a better plan than trying to lay preliminary blame. This piece by Orlov, though, is disgusting material. I know many Ukrainians, and they are no dumber than any of the Russians, Canadians, Americans, etc. that I know. The kind of small-minded ethnic shit-flinging Orlov indulges in makes him quite irrelevant. It’s a pity, since I have agreed with a fair amount he’s written in the past.

  37. longtimber on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 10:21 pm 

    Anyone know the fella in the image? After that image you just gotta read the article..

  38. J on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 10:47 pm 

    At least someone recalls the big false flag operation: http://i.imgur.com/9T5hEmq.jpg

  39. dissident on Wed, 30th Jul 2014 11:20 pm 

    Since I am half Ukrainian I can comment about Ukrainian intelligence. Orlov goes too far with painting everyone with the same brush. But the current regime in Kiev is composed of total idiots who are following Washington’s orders. The rebellion in the east could have been totally avoided if the legitimate political rights of the local population was respected. They voted in free elections in 2010 and 2012 for candidates that were removed in a coup. I am not talking just about Yanukovich. The Rada (the legislature) had over half of its members purged by the coup leaders who proceeded to establish a kangaroo legislature and pass laws illegally without a quorum. This is not some triviality. It is government without representation. Americans sure love go on about how their revolution was about taxation without representation yet deny people in eastern Ukraine the same rights.

    Any passing of laws should have waited for new elections to the Rada. But the coup regime set up a dictatorship. The election of Poroshenko does not establish democratic legitimacy. The regime in Kiev is not a legitimate government without a functional legislature and constitutional court. The regime disbanded the court before any election. People in the east staged massive demonstrations to protest the illegal behaviour of the idiots in Kiev. The Kiev idiots arrested hundreds of them in a campaign of intimidation. This precipitated an uprising. Having a rubber stamp mark from Washington does not make the Kiev regime legitimate.

  40. Arthur on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 1:40 am 

    “Which brings up what I consider too little attention paid to the guilt of the Malaysian airline. The shoot down in the Ukraine and over the Persian Gulf may have been unfortunate accidents. But MA scheduling their aircraft to fly over a very active warzone containing numerous SAM’s controlled by all the belligerent parties wasn’t an accident.”

    Rockman, during the previous 10 flights, MH17 had taken the safe southern route over the Sea of Azov. On that fategul day it was Borispol airtraffic control that told mh17 to fly over the warzone, hardening the suspicion that mh17 was set up for destruction on purpose to create the desired international scandal, we now have.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/malaysian-airlines-mh17-was-ordered-to-fly-over-the-east-ukraine-warzone/5392540

    And back to that theoretical possibility that rebels might have machine-gunned that piece of cockpit… it would not have been easy to organize a machinegun with 30 mm ammo, just to mimick a SU25 board gun, now would it?

  41. Arthur on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 1:53 am 

    Here senior American intelligence officers slamming the official US government claims. There is no proof that Russia did it.

    http://www.globalresearch.ca/the-mh17-crash-us-veteran-intelligence-officers-slam-the-flimsy-intelligence-against-russia/5393959

    It is telling that we have heard nothing so far from the investigation team that handles the blavk boxes. Where are the recordings of the last minute cockpit conversations. Could it be that the investigators are completely embarrassed about it’s content and shy away from the political implications? Could it be that the pilot protested the instructions from Borispol? Coyld it be that the pilot is asking Borispol what these fighters are doing, trailing mh17? Could it be that the machine gunning is audible?

    Everything points at a setup created by Kiev, on the orders of the Americans, to create the desired pretext for conflict with Russia. The US government had proven to be master in creating these phony pretexts in the past.

  42. Makati1 on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 2:14 am 

    On the BB recording…

    “WTF?!”

    “Why is that plane shooting at us?”

    “OH SHIT!!!………

    (Or the Malaysian equivalent)

  43. Makati1 on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 2:27 am 

    Then there is this analysis…

    “West Isolating Itself with Sanctions Against Russia”

    http://journal-neo.org/2014/07/31/west-isolating-itself-with-sanctions-against-russia/

    “…Russia responded by pointing out Japan’s inability to establish independent foreign policy of its own and instead pursue self-destructive edicts dictated by Washington. Indeed, what the West is doing is isolating itself from a growing mulipolar world that refuses to recognize or remain beholden to a waning unipolar international order centered around Wall Street and London. While the US, EU, and Japan constitute immense economies, technology and progress elsewhere has led to emerging economies that have the potential to eclipse them all. In China alone, Russia has been looking to hedge economic risk by developing ties with the growing nation.

    Despite attempts to disrupt growing Russian-Chinese relations through terrorism and political subversion, sanctions against Russia and continued belligerence as part of the West’s “pivot to Asia” serve only to drive these two emerging powers closer together….”

  44. clueless on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 2:37 am 

    Orlow was so spot on !
    USA is utterly desperate to get rid of Putin…to no avail.
    The boomerang gets back to its thrower!!!
    lol

  45. Norm on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 3:53 am 

    Obviously, it wasn’t Putin who blew up the 777. It was Obama that did it. After all, everything is Obama’s fault.

  46. lobodomar on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 4:20 am 

    Having the tendency to behave like sheep is part of a primoridal human, not specifically american, nature. Such tendency is specially enhanced when fellings related to nationalism (patriotism, feeling of belonging to a certain distinct group, tribe, or whatever) are involved.

    The reason US citizens are often accused of being more sheep than others is simply because their are subject to the most powerful propaganda machine of the world, while feeling to be “part” of the most powerful group of them all (which renders them specially eager believers of such propaganda).

    Americans are neither more or less good or evil, wise or sheep, than anyone else.

  47. Dredd on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 7:12 am 

    Club Orlov uses colorful language.

    Nevertheless, those who are aware of foreign policy history concerning the Ukraine agree with Orlov on this one.

    Those sources are European, Australian, and American (The Peak Of The Oil Wars – 11).

  48. Arthur on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 7:25 am 

    http://www.newsmax.com/TheWire/paul-joseph-watson-savage-nation-ukraine-mh17/2014/07/23/id/584449/

    Paul Joseph Watson was so kind to remind us that in the previous Malaysian airliner desaster tapes were released in less than three days. Why did Kiev confiscate the recordings? Why is the investigation team not releasing conversations stored in the black boxes? Reason: they do not want us to know, because it is against the interests of Ukrainian and western governments to do do. They are probably busy right now creating a fake tape.

  49. Davy on Thu, 31st Jul 2014 7:40 am 

    Art, you are speculating. We know this disaster is a highly charge situation and that they are trying to approach this disaster in a delicate fashion. I know it was your countrymen killed mostly but Art please don’t become like the people you are complaining about. You are speculating, jumping to conclusions, and rushing judgment. These are the same things you are complaining about.

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