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Kunstler: Just Wait a Little While

Public Policy

The trouble, of course, is that even after the Deep State (a.k.a. “The Swamp”) succeeds in quicksanding President Trump, America will be left with itself — adrift among the cypress stumps, drained of purpose, spirit, hope, credibility, and, worst of all, a collective grasp on reality, lost in the fog of collapse.

Here’s what you need to know about what’s going on and where we’re headed.

The United States is comprehensively bankrupt. The government is broke and the citizenry is trapped under inescapable debt burdens. We are never again going to generate the kinds and volumes of “growth” associated with techno-industrial expansion. That growth came out of energy flows, mainly fossil fuels, that paid for themselves and furnished a surplus for doing other useful things. It’s over. Shale oil, for instance, doesn’t pay for itself and the companies engaged in it will eventually run out of accounting hocus-pocus for pretending that it does, and they will go out of business.

The self-evident absence of growth means the end of borrowing money at all levels. When you can’t pay back old loans, it’s unlikely that you will be able to arrange new loans. The nation could pretend to be able to borrow more, since it can supposedly “create” money (loan it into existence, print it, add keystrokes to computer records), but eventually those tricks fail, too. Either the “non-performing” loans (loans not being paid off) cause money to disappear, or the authorities “create” so much new money from thin air (money not associated with real things of value like land, food, manufactured goods) that the “money” loses its mojo as a medium of exchange (for real things), as a store of value (over time), and as a reliable index of pricing — which is to say all the functions of money.

In other words, there are two ways of going broke in this situation: money can become scarce as it disappears so that few people have any; or everybody can have plenty of money that has no value and no credibility. I mention these monetary matters because the system of finance is the unifying link between all the systems we depend on for modern life, and none of them can run without it. So that’s where the real trouble is apt to start. That’s why I write about markets and banks on this blog.

The authorities in this nation, including government, business, and academia, routinely lie about our national financial operations for a couple of reasons. One is that they know the situation is hopeless but the consequences are so awful to contemplate that resorting to accounting fraud and pretense is preferable to facing reality. Secondarily, they do it to protect their jobs and reputations — which they will lose anyway as collapse proceeds and their record of feckless dishonesty reveals itself naturally.

The underlying issue is the scale of human activity in our time. It has exceeded its limits and we have to tune back a lot of what we do. Anything organized at the giant scale is headed for failure, so it comes down to a choice between outright collapse or severe re-scaling, which you might think of as managed contraction. That goes for government programs, military adventures, corporate enterprise, education, transportation, health care, agriculture, urban design, basically everything. There is an unfortunate human inclination to not reform, revise, or re-scale familiar activities. We’ll use every kind of duct tape and baling wire we can find to keep the current systems operating, and we have, but we’re close to the point where that sort of cob-job maintenance won’t work anymore, especially where money is concerned.

Why this is so has been attributed to intrinsic human brain programming that supposedly evolved optimally for short-term planning. But obviously many people and institutions dedicate themselves to long-term thinking. So there must be a big emotional over-ride represented by the fear of letting go of what used to work that tends to disable long-term thinking. It’s hard to accept that our set-up is about to stop working — especially something as marvelous as techno-industrial society.

But that’s exactly what’s happening. If you want a chance at keeping on keeping on, you’ll have to get with reality’s program. Start by choosing a place to live that has some prospect of remaining civilized. This probably doesn’t include our big cities. But there are plenty of small cities and small towns out in America that are scaled for the resource realities of the future, waiting to be reinhabited and reactivated. A lot of these lie along the country’s inland waterways — the Ohio, Mississippi, Missouri river system, the Great Lakes, the Hudson and St. Lawrence corridors — and they also exist in regions of the country were food can be grown.

You’ll have to shift your energies into a trade or vocation that makes you useful to other people. This probably precludes jobs like developing phone apps, day-trading, and teaching gender studies. Think: carpentry, blacksmithing, basic medicine, mule-breeding, simplified small retail, and especially farming, along with the value-added activities entailed in farm production. The entire digital economy is going to fade away like a drug-induced hallucination, so beware the current narcissistic blandishments of computer technology. Keep in mind that being in this world actually entitles you to nothing. One way or another, you’ll have to earn everything worth having, including self-respect and your next meal.

Now, just wait a little while.

Kunstler



43 Comments on "Kunstler: Just Wait a Little While"

  1. peaktard on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 7:38 am 

    the “deep state” term used by the alt-tard media is crap Mr. kuntsler.

    slow change is preferable to quick change. this is what frederic bastiat said.

  2. Darrell Cloud on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 9:02 am 

    I think Kustler is spot on with this. The deep state can produce a tremendous amount of murder and mayhem in the interim, but in the long run they are about as relevant as the Stasi or the Pretorian Guard. Whether their end is brought about by economic demise or the unintended consequence of poking the fat Korean kid with a stick, their end is inevitable. We the people simply have to stay out of their way as the unraveling takes place.
    Most of us know that if the lights go out millions of people will die in a traffic jam. If the unraveling takes place in stages, the aware will have a chance to evacuate the cities before the die off takes them out. I am praying for the latter but know full well the former is entirely possible.

  3. MASTERMIND on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 9:05 am 

    Don’t worry once we lose our oil supplies we can all go back to riding horses again. Then there will be all sorts of new jobs created “shoveling shit” all day.

  4. joe on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 9:36 am 

    Don’t forget navvies. Digging ditches and foundations for buildings etc with shovels used to be some mens whole carrears.

  5. Cloggie on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 9:37 am 

    It is obvious that mr Kunstler is not a fanatical neocon, despite his background. He almost sounds white-nationalist/alt-right.

    This probably doesn’t include our big cities. But there are plenty of small cities and small towns out in America that are scaled for the resource realities of the future, waiting to be reinhabited and reactivated. A lot of these lie along the country’s inland waterways — the Ohio, Mississippi, Missouri river system, the Great Lakes, the Hudson and St. Lawrence corridors — and they also exist in regions of the country were food can be grown.

    Kunstler just certified Davy’s survival strategy.

    You’ll have to shift your energies into a trade or vocation that makes you useful to other people. This probably precludes jobs like developing phone apps, day-trading, and teaching gender studies. Think: carpentry, blacksmithing, basic medicine, mule-breeding, simplified small retail, and especially farming, along with the value-added activities entailed in farm production.

    Kunstler is just as an American back-to-nature romantic as many else here. “World made by hand”, sure mr Kunstler.

    He is right as far as “gender studies” are concerned, but electronics are here to stay… because they require little energy and produce useful information and provide near total market transparency and hence transaction efficiency, which is only going to increase. No more hunting with your car for some spare part, that is now only a single Google search away.

    Forget about your desired mom-and-pop store revival, mr Kunstler. Yes the malls will disappear, just like most old-school stores, apart from fresh-food outlets, because they have no added value any more. I can see any product online, just as good as when I see it for real, I can read reviews online, watch youtube videos of the product. Most of they buying and selling will proceed online.

    I disagree with his notion that the sense of crisis in America has anything to do with energy. It hasn’t. Instead it is a struggle about the future of the country: either a white majority country, as Trump and his voters insist, or a country where the Europeans have no longer any influence, which is what the Swamp wants.

    It is not difficult to predict how this standoff will end.

    https://www.amazon.com/Stop-Coming-Civil-War-Savage/dp/1455582417

    https://altright.com/2017/08/05/the-unite-the-right-rally-is-going-to-be-a-turning-point-for-white-identity-in-america/

  6. Sissyfuss on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 9:55 am 

    Kinsler at his most lugubrious. Not to say he is off the mark but his lack of denial towards our present day predicaments is extremely off-putting. Yes, the big cities population of walking dead will grow exponentially as collapse accelerates and the survival game shows will replace the NFL. But will those that make it to a livable locale evolve psychologically fast enough so as to not fall for the path of least resistance that led us here. I doubt it. Evolution does not proceed on a human time scale.

  7. deadlykillerbeaz on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 10:11 am 

    You will need a wood/coal burning furnace that doesn’t require electricity to be functional. A wood burning stove too, for cooking and heat.

    Can’t avoid burning wood that only needs air to burn to provide some warmth.

    You won’t need electricity from the power plant, a wind charger and a wind mill to pump water can do the job.

    A couple of good steam engines for lifting power will be necessary.

    Make sure there is a veterinarian somewhere close along with a medical doctor.

    Make sure you have a milk cow. A used B-52 loaded with fuel and ordnance will be there for your protection.

    You can fuel it with jet fuel derived through coal gasification.

    You will need mules and work horses, a John Deere plow, horse tack, reins, oats, a bit bag, bits, saddles, spurs, horseshoes.

    Make sure there are enough industries near the woods where you live for material support inhabited by civilized urbanites.

    You should have television stations broadcasting favorite programs and professional sports.

    If you want to get back to nature, you need the present civilization to escape from to go back to where it all began.

    Can’t be Euelle Gibbons every single day when you’re out there in the great wide open.

    You gotta go Galt.

  8. Jerry McManus on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 11:19 am 

    Unfortunately, entire generations in the wealthy industrialized world have been raised to feel supremely entitled to everything, and they don’t feel obligated to lift a finger to earn it.

    I actually tried to live with a woman like that once and have regretted it ever since.

    In the many years since then I have been repeatedly shocked and horrified by just how many people like that there are out there.

    Props to JHK for dreaming big, but I don’t see any way in hell, and I do mean hell, how a world populated by clueless, selfish narcissists can get back to some sort of dreamy Jeffersonian utopia of journeyman farmers living in egalitarian harmony.

    Much more likely that seven-billion-going-on-nine-billion people will simply end up fighting like cats in a sack until there is nothing left on the face of the Earth but a thin layer of burnt plastic.

    My advice? Fuck the future. Enjoy the party while you still can.

  9. dave thompson on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 11:25 am 

    Three minuets no air? Dead. Three days no water? Dead. Three weeks no food? Dead. 100’s of nukes melting down due to human neglect with ionized radiation everywhere? All are dead.

  10. Go Speed Racer on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 5:05 pm 

    In Kunstler We Trust.
    He says carpentry is more useful, than teaching gender
    studies. LOL awesome. This is so true.

  11. Harquebus on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 5:45 pm 

    One problem. Not enough horses.

  12. Theedrich on Mon, 7th Aug 2017 7:12 pm 

    Araby, int’l crime & Sörös-types own us. The framers of the U.S. Constitution never imagined that The Swamp would become a sargasso sea of corrupt money and Congressional traitors who imbibe it.  In a healthier country, such traitors would be treated to the punishments all traitors deserve.  Here, the Demonic Party and lying RINOs could not care less about the disintegrating nation they rule.  The herd, however, has the government it deserves, since it has decided to swallow the anti-evolutionary slop dished out by the MSM.

    At the end of next month, The Swamp will expand the nation’s debt limit by another $trillion.  Because the herd wants it, and it is needed to support the dozen million or so illegal parasites (sob, sob) and their inflowing extended relatives.  One imaginable scenario is that, sometime in the months thereafter, the creatures from the Black Lagoon may even decide to distract the herd by some kind of covert attempt to regime-change North Korea.  After causing the deaths of countless innocents on the Korean peninsula, that would quickly draw in Japan, which would in turn provoke China to engage, followed by the possibility of nuclear exchange with the U.S.  But the submerged reptiles would be safe, while calling themselves “heroes.”

    However, that scenario is pretty painful.  So it is more probable that the current Ponzi scheme will continue.  Afghanistan, now run 40%-50% by the Taliban with help from ISIS, will continue to drain American blood and treasure, while serving as an ongoing source for yet more “refugees” to infect the good ol’ USA.  The Syrian “civil war,” initiated and perpetuated by the D.C. reptiles, will likewise continue, with the same effects.  Europe will pride itself on its Jesus-induced genosuicide as it turns Mohammedan.  And Western civilization will dissolve in an opiate haze of egalitarianism.

    But hey, the U.S. stopped the nasty Nazis.

  13. DerHundistlos on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 3:34 am 

    During the Great Depression, the deer and turkey populations, as was the case in many other states as well, were damn near hunted to the brink of extinction. At the nadir, the total number of deer in the state was estimated at no more than 400.

    The Missouri’s human population is today more than double what it was during the depression. Can you imagine how rapidly all wildlife would be hunted out in a scenario as presented by Kunstler?

    A far more frightening event is now occurring in real time. I’m sure many of you are aware of the ever increasing incidence of of Chronic Wasting disease in a number of wildlife species. CWD is a prion related disease now found among numerous cervids or hoofed animals- domestic and wild.

    I previously warned you, dear reader, of unprecedented catastrophe in the making as prion disease disseminates its way through the food chain. Alien species are monitoring the spread via what has become known as, “animal mutilations”. A new scientific study just released confirms that CWD prions in white-tailed deer and caribou (reindeer) are capable of converting to human prion disease and vice versa. I remind you that prion disease is 100% fatal, has a long incubation period, there is no form of treatment, and is easily transmitted. The original means of infection occurred as a result of animal feed companies including the bones and organs of the same species as a protein supplement. In other words, we are forcing animals that are vegetarian into cannibals.

    Mark my words that this will be the black swan event that brings abaout an end to mankind. There will be hell to be paid for violating Mother Nature.

  14. Makati1 on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 4:13 am 

    Derhund, I too agree that the wild food will disappear in a mater of weeks when the trucks stop rolling into the nearest grocery store. In months, rats will be rare or extinct also for the same reason. Anything edible will be gone from the wild. As well as any livestock on farms, including the dog. Some here will deny that that could happen in America, but then, few Americans have ever gone a few days without eating. Probably not even one day, unless it was voluntary. Cannibalism is not dead, just not active at the moment, but it may/will be. A lot of fat ‘long pig’ in America.

    Yes, new and old diseases are going to run rampant when the doctors stay home to protect their families and the pharmacies close. Drugs are a $100+ billion business in the U$ and most Americans cannot live long without them. I read an article that claimed that there will be a 90% die-off in America in the first year the system shuts down. Sounds high but…

    Interesting times ahead.

  15. Davy on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 4:23 am 

    “Derhund, I too agree that the wild food will disappear in a mater of weeks when the trucks stop rolling into the nearest grocery store.”

    Right makat, it has already happened in the P’s where forest and fisheries are in general decline and localized failure. You will be up the friggen creek makat when the trucks stop. I have a state with a little more than half the territory but only 6Mil people and you have 100MIL. We also have cropland that even if industrial agriculture would be severely limited would still manage to feed many of us. You on the other hand have instant famine. You are above a 20MIL urban mega population region ranking among the most densely populated areas in the world. We have this conversation often I guess it is a sign of your age you don’t accept it. Old people are like that sometimes.

  16. Hello on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 5:43 am 

    >>>> consequence of poking the fat Korean kid with a stick

    LOL

  17. deadlykillerbeaz on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 6:01 am 

    It is Creutzfeldt-Jacob disease.

    Your brain becomes a goo.

    http://www.mayoclinic.org/diseases-conditions/creutzfeldt-jakob-disease/basics/symptoms/con-20028005

    You don’t last long.

  18. Makati1 on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 6:17 am 

    You are funny, Davy boy. You have NOTHING! You brag about your redneck neighbors but you will be their first target when the SHTF. The whole state is subject to the gangs from St Louis. Freaky weather. And a low IQ population. You will not be able to defend that farm 24/7/365 with a few kids.

    You need to read some up to date info on the Ps, not ancient propaganda. I don’t know why you ASSUME that the Ps is worse than the U$ other than some outdated ‘facts’ you kinda remember. And a hatred of anyone who may have it better than you.

    Try a few references to support your position, IF you can find any that does NOT originate with some U$ propaganda org.

    You seem to believe that when the shit happens to the U$, it will happen in all countries around the world even worse. More of that American exceptionalist bullshit, I guess. You suck it up 24/7/365. Too bad.

  19. boat on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 6:19 am 

    I will miss the days when 18 eggs cant be bought for 84 cents, cantaloupe for 88 cents and Walmart pkg of 4 pocket t-shirts for 17.50. Hell that’s less than one hr of work. I love capitalism. Now, when will Walmart sell DeWalt batteries.

  20. Davy on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 7:29 am 

    makat, number don’t lie. Are you denying the population and area of the P’s. LMFAO, what a delusional old man.

  21. Cloggie on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 7:33 am 

    @makati, I think that for an American (or European), South-America would be a more reasonable refuge if the shtf. Argentina, Chile, Uruguay, Paraguay. Every high-ranking German in 1945 knew that to be true or in 1989 for that matter:

    Erich and Margot Honecker fled to Santiago de Chile after the breakdown of the GDR:

    http://media0.faz.net/ppmedia/aktuell/1490527284/1.1656474/default/das-ehepaar-honecker-1993-im.jpg

  22. Makati1 on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 7:49 am 

    Cloggie, this is NOT 1945. South America is not a ‘safe place’ and will only get worse as time passes. They may have land, but climate change is making living there more and more difficult. The Amazon Forest is drying out and that will change everything. But, who knows? I wouldn’t want to live there.

  23. Davy on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 7:58 am 

    There are very few great refuges left, maybe New Zealand is one of the few left. The P’s is low on the lists of refuges hence the hilarity of makat and his tourist propaganda. The US and Europe have some good spots and some bad spots but overall both will be quite dangerous in a decline. The best refuge is in your heart. We are all going to die and you can’t run from that. Learn to accept that and live life to the fullest in the here and now.

  24. Makati1 on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 8:04 am 

    Davy, comparing population per square kilometer is not the answer. The Ps is NOT the U$. It already exists, and is growing, on less than 1/20th the resources that the U$ consumes. It can easily keep that amount coming after the SHTF.

    Most of it’s imports are NOT necessities. Electronics and cars are not necessities for Filipinos as they are for Americans. Most here own neither. They have no debt or even bank accounts. But they all have very happy family lives and enjoy life. As do I.

    As for food, you have no idea what having a year round growing seasons means. You are at the mercy of one season per year and, if the weather keeps going insane there, you may not have any growing season that is reliable. Meanwhile, the Pacific keeps the weather here, even, as always.

    Predicting the weather here is easy. Always the same. 70s at night. 80s during the day with occasional low 90s. Shower or thunderstorm daily during the rainy season. No freezing weather to need heat to stay alive. No excessive hot days to cause problems. Most homes just have open windows. Free HVAC.

    The ‘wet market’ in the local town near the farm has all the food you can want and it is NOT trucked in from long distances. Locally grown. It is a fishing port so sea food is fresh and cheap. And withing walking distance of the farm. And on and on.

    YOU are the one in the precarious position, even if you deny it. Not me.

  25. Makati1 on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 8:07 am 

    There you go Davy. “The best refuge is in your heart”. Sounds like a religious chant. The last resort of a weakling is religion. LOL

  26. Davy on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 8:21 am 

    “There you go Davy. “The best refuge is in your heart”. Sounds like a religious chant. The last resort of a weakling is religion. LOL”

    It sounds like a religious chant to you because you are an old man terrified of death. All your comments reflect this condition in the background. You want to talk up yourself even though you are an old man in his twilight years losing his faculties and physical strength. Anyone with personal inner strength would know what I am talking about.

  27. peaktard on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 8:27 am 

    @der, i have to bring my life to conclusion eventually by closing open ended questions no matter how flawed. the quest for ultimate answers never ceaase

    your theory on UFO and multilation or some weird flat earth or hollow earth and bermuda triagle or that testla was a super genius will just have to be your burden.

    i was a pualtard and i was deep into all this stuff. this is not what respectable scientific tards would investigate so it’s left to you and other tards to carry on.

    it’s there to ooen your minds so you accept more sewage uptatke easily. it’s poison

  28. Davy on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 8:29 am 

    “Davy, comparing population per square kilometer is not the answer. The Ps is NOT the U$. It already exists, and is growing, on less than 1/20th the resources that the U$ consumes. It can easily keep that amount coming after the SHTF.”

    Sorry, makat. It is both population levels and consumption profiles. The problem with your P’s, makat, is you are growing more overextended on both counts. The US is facing some of the same but you are in one of the worst possible situations of anyone on this blog. You are in the awful position of being in the middle of 20MIL urban sprawl. The rest of the P’s is facing forest and fishery decline and localized failure. The population is far too big for a healthy ecosystem and far too big to survive as-is when the trucks and ships stop. You are facing a famine makat, that is if you live that long. You are an old man so you may die first.

  29. Cloggie on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 8:32 am 

    The idea that we could all survive is of course too terrible to contemplate for a real doomer.lol

  30. DerHundistlos on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 5:23 pm 

    @ Peaktarded

    Interesting that you know nothing about the subject material so you revert to nonsensical and vague buffoonery. You think this form of language is cool and trendy. Otherwise, you would respond with a convincing reply that the tens of thousands of global cattle and other animal mutilations reported by farmers and ranchers is the work of say satanic cults or predators or government experiments. The farming/ranching community along with local law enforcement know who is responsible. Here is an interview conducted with two Montana sheriffs. Maybe you will learn something, although I doubt it since you already know https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nR_hKWv45OY&t=1911s

    Present evidence to the contrary otherwise just shut up since you add nothing to the body of evidence except that you proudly self-identify as being retarded.

  31. bigtard on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 5:31 pm 

    It failed the litmus test – nobody got probed.

    Out of respect for you I’ll file it under “permaculture”

  32. DerHundistlos on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 5:33 pm 

    I forgot to add to my first post that Missouri has the best funded and most active Department of Conservation of any state. Beginning in 1979, the people of Missouri wisely voted in favor of a 1/8 of once cent gas tax to ensure a reliable funding stream to combat soil erosion and to support conservation initiatives. Since initial approval, the tax has been renewed each time it comes for vote by a wide margin. Prior to the tax, Missouri led the nation in total cropland erosion. Today Missouri dropped to the fifth position nationally. Only four other states better control the loss of top soil.

    Go MO!!!!!

  33. bigtard on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 5:38 pm 

    Der the earth grows up exposing nutrients for plants. I seen trees that grow on top of big rocks esp when I go hiking

    I wouldn’t worry about erosion

  34. Makati1 on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 7:20 pm 

    “Professor Lets Students Choose Their Own Grades For “Stress Reduction”

    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2017-08-08/professor-lets-students-choose-their-own-grades-stress-reduction

    I can hardly wait6 for the next generation of college grads to take over the U$ leadership…LMAO

    “Keep in mind that being in this world actually entitles you to nothing. One way or another, you’ll have to earn everything worth having, including self-respect and your next meal.” They are going to learn that snowflakes melt in the heat of reality.

  35. DerHundistlos on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 9:27 pm 

    @ deadly killer beaz

    Thank you for the excellent link.

    Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and its variants belong to a broad group of human and animal diseases known as transmissible spongiform encephalopathies (TSEs). The name derives from the spongy holes, visible under a microscope, that develop in affected brain tissue.

    The cause of Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease and other TSEs is abnormal versions of a kind of protein called a prion. Normally these proteins are harmless. But when they’re misshapen, they become infectious and can harm normal biological processes.

    How CJD is transmitted:

    The authors attempt to reassure the public that the incidence TSE disease may be “low” (they have no idea of its prevalence) while acknowledging that normal sterilization procedures do not kill the pathogen. Thus any surgical equipment or blood/tissue contaminated with TSE WILL result in disease. Variant CJD occurs when the victim consumes beef or other animal protein. There are many modes of infection.

    You may recall that the UK slaughtered the nation’s entire bovine herd in an attempt to control the spread of TSE. Unfortunately, at that time it was not understood that normal incineration does not kill the abnormal proteins. The result is that prions were spread all across England. They have a ticking time bomb on their hands. Why do you think the incidence of Alzheimer’s grows by double digits with every passing year?

  36. DerHundistlos on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 9:38 pm 

    @ bigtard

    You can’t be serious. According to the USDA, it takes 500 years to form one inch of topsoil. The timeline for the latest inch of topsoil began in 1507 — about the time that Michaelangelo was working on the Sistine Chapel.

    Please……

  37. bigtard on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 10:54 pm 

    Der I invented lazy man farming because I observed trees do fine on their own having deep roots. I was aware of woody agriculture by this guy mark Sheppard. I would focus on trees mostly. I know that volcanic soil is fertile so there’s plenty of stuff plants need in the ground. Let the unproductive top soil wash away. You don’t lose much there. Plants absorb minerals and complex in such a way that our body can consume. The rest they take from the sun. I don’t trust the smart people because they are self serving and con men. I don’t score so I think about these things. If cities flush every thing to the ocean then we have to replace our top soil don’t we.

    Luckily I tell you to let top soil washes away because there is always more in deeper layers. I want to kill all adherents of permaculture cult because they advocate subsistence farming and they think I there’s a permanent contractual agreement with nature. Nonsense for example water destroy everything whether you like it or not.

    By building top soil you advocate negotiating with nature. Have you seen indoors salads farms using little led energy to grow. I want to turn agriculture into manufacturing because we take away the power of nature to cause harm. Do you see how easy it is https://youtu.be/w54cGXdgxNI

    Turn away from cattle mutilation biz bro. It’s a waste off time

  38. bigtard on Tue, 8th Aug 2017 11:12 pm 

    Der when I advocate taking away nature’s ability to do harm I meant for example you crops were doing fine then locus plague or drought or early frost or blight. It’s because you can’t be on the same level with nature because it’s infinitely complex. In manufacturing we define the rules.

    This is very close to having solar panels attached to our body and get energy from it. Very efficient.

  39. DerHundistlos on Wed, 9th Aug 2017 1:03 am 

    @ bigtard

    Now that you have explained yourself I understand your comment better, although I will continue to contend loss of fertile topsoil is a serious global issue.

  40. Davy on Wed, 9th Aug 2017 6:43 am 

    “I want to kill all adherents of permaculture cult because they advocate subsistence farming and they think I there’s a permanent contractual agreement with nature. Nonsense for example water destroy everything whether you like it or not.”

    Nonsense Btard, permaculture farming is sound and it encompasses multiple types of farming. I am doing permaculture grassland intensive grazing with a multi-species approach of goats and cattle. Your woody agriculture has a place but like all other alternatives to industrial Ag there are only niches. Industrial Ag fits everywhere because it is destructive and then brings in its nutrients and minerals. There is nothing sustainable about industrial Ag because it is a modern version of slash and burn. All alternatives to industrial Ag must learn to adapt where-is. The best farming practices find their local carbon, water, and nitrogen cycle and adapt to it. This of course makes permaculture location dependent and focused.

    Industrial Ag is going to come under increasing pressure so permaculture is the answer to what little mitigation we can manage for those who survive the decline and decay of industrial civilization. We need so many more people engaged in growing food via small scale permaculture. That solution likely will not happen until a crisis and then maybe it will be too late. Yet, if some are able to stay at the effort we will see a permaculture future because what are the alternatives other than hunting and gathering or raiding. It is likely industrial Ag will remain in sweet spots in a decline. Let us hope the degree and the duration are agreeable to human survival. A sudden drop in industrial Ag will leave much of our 7BIL starving.

  41. peakyeast on Wed, 9th Aug 2017 6:58 am 

    @Davy: +1

  42. DerHundistlos on Wed, 9th Aug 2017 12:08 pm 

    You’re right, Davy.

  43. DerHundistlos on Wed, 9th Aug 2017 12:15 pm 

    @ Tard

    Turn away from the subject of cattle mutilations simply because you think it’s a waste of time? I should take your word for it? Based on what evidence to the contrary? Provide me with a convincing prosaic explanation and I will. Your opinion based on a gut feeling is all you have and that won’t suffice.

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