There have been more than a few threads here about vaccines and their uses, and abuses.

Certainly, vaccines are useful for preventing outbreaks of disease.

Prophylaxis is a key component of public health.

What concerns me is the risk management process that goes into employing some vaccines on a large scale. Public benefit vs. personal risk, and all that.

Forcing schoolchildren against their parents wishes to be vaccinated seems a little heavy handed. Perhaps even despotic.

There was a controversy surrounding guardisil (the HPV vaccine) and how the manufacturers of the vaccine were seemingly lobbying members of the government to mandate it.

I think it goes to the idea (bad idea, IMHO) of allowing the profit motive into public health policy.

Honestly my biggest gripe about pharmaceutical marketing is the direct to consumer ads. I spend *so* much time trying to convince people that they really don't need to spend $60 a month on Yaz instead of $4 a month on Sprintec. I *know* that most docs just write the Yaz script and move on to the next patient. In terms of total health costs, Gardasil is a big time money saver. We spend insane amounts of money in this country on doing pap smears and doing secondary evaluation on abnormal pap smears. If we can get widespread acceptance of Gardisil, we will be able to start doing paps at a later age, and do them less often. It will take money straight out of my pocket, but it will save immensely in overall health costs.

That's interesting, and good to know. Is there any debate still going on about the efficacy, or safety of Gardisil?

I guess my point was this:

Seeing as you are a phyician, do you ever have to struggle with the "do no harm" vs. potential public health benefit?

I suppose it is a balancing act, and not an easy one.

I don't see a lot of debate going on. It's pretty effective for what it's supposed to do: Decrease the frequency of cervical dysplasia. I don't think there's been any huge safety issues raised, although it's a new medicine. Any new medicine has the potential of turning out years from now to have really bad side effects that we hadn't envisioned.



Sure. I don't think about it so much with vaccines, in that A: I don't do that many vaccines, and B: the health risks from vaccines are very much in the realm of theoretical rather than known risks.

Where I tend to think about those issues more is in terms of the economic impacts of health care. Healthcare is huge and ever increasing portion of the GDP. Frankly a lot of that money, if not most of that money, is wasted. It's spent on stupid tests and stupid treatments that don't really bring anyone all that much health improvement. The Yaz thing is a perfect example. Almost every day I run into a patient that's been suckered in by a slick Yaz advertisement. The patient would be happier, and my day would go more smoothly if I just write the Yaz script. For most people, it does absolutely nothing different than a $4 script for Sprintec. So there's the dilemma. The patient wants a $60 treatment, because they saw an ad on TV with nice colors, and cool music, and a couple of bogus scientific claims. If I write the Rx, it's going to get paid by insurance and externalized onto a whole bunch of other people. That's a real balancing act. If the patient gets pissed and storms out, I've lost a patient, and you can bet she's going to go to another clinic the same day and get a script for Yaz. LOTS of people want tests and treatments that they don't need. It's a real balancing act preventing people from spending insurance money on stupid things while still maintaining enough of a practice to pay the rent every month.

As one of those people I can assure you I didnt want a third or even a quarter of all those tests when I had free healthcare available. Now, being skinned alive by insurance companies, I will make sure they spend on me more than I give to them. Overall, there shouldnt be any insurances. It should be either free, when a doctor can tell a patient to fuc* himself if he does not need that test/treatment, or 100% paid by a patient , so the price will be dictated by a market, and not randomly picked by a hospital clerk.

I don't know how I would manage to require $4000 -$5000 a year in healthcare. How do you manage to be so ill just to get your money's worth?

It's not about the day to day medical expenses. It's the big illnesses/injuries that you need insurance for.

God forbid you get cancer or need to spend a month in a hospital. That's when you'll wish you had insurance.

That's what I have it for. I don't understand manufacturing illnesses in order to justify spending thousands of dollars in insurance, which is what it looks like Pretorian is doing. I don't like doctors that much!

It's a very dumb thing to do. Get enough tests and eventually someone will find something to do a surgery on or give you some sort of dangerous treatment for. Then you won't be acting sick anymore, you will be sick.

Seriously, if you possibly can, my advice is to stay away from doctors. Make yourself a regular at the doctors office, and you probably will not lead a very long life.

Ludi, didnt you say that you have a $5000 deductible with some horrendous co-pay on your state-sponsored insurance? and that you have to pay $4000 or so for the privilege?

As for illnesses, there is no need manufacturing them, with what healthcare costs in US . I did a sleep study for example recently-- i didnt look into charges yet, but thats 2 doctor visits and 2 nights-- around $4-6 K, a third appointment coming ( $200? $400? $500?)
and of course CPAP box ($2-2500) which costs around $500 I guess if i had to buy it on my own.

PS I just made a little research and apparently the study goes anywhere from 2k in cash to 16-18K for someone with a very good insurance, and one Russian dude made it in Sweden for $13

The mercury and other additives in vaccines are not necessarily harmless, according to HUGH FUDENBURG, MD - celebrated immunologist (served on the expert advisory panel in immunology for the WHO for 20 years), winner of numerous honors with over 800 papers in peer reviewed journal and noted researcher in Alzheimer's. Quoting a recent study, Dr Fudenberg stated the following:





source

What is funny is all the people who get a flu shot and still get the flu! Just last winter i know some people that this happened too. I've never had one and never will. If i get the flu, oh well, i'll sit in bed all day and recover.

Another thought.

I just read an article in a Florida newspaper that talked about a doctor giving her husband with early onset alzeheimers coconut oil for treatment. Whatever test he took went way up after just a few days. I guess coconut oil is also good for heavy metal buildup too...weird...

Maybe it would just be simpler if you listed the modern medical interventions you think are safe Dukey. It would take up less room I think. While you're at it, could you list out for us what parts of world history you think are true. That would save time also. And come to think of it, maybe you could list for us the YouTube videos that you don't like.

[quote]Vaccine book brings out hidden support
When the letters and e-mails started to pour in, Dr. Paul Offit braced himself. The pediatrician and vaccine inventor is a prominent defender of childhood vaccines, tackling those who have argued that immunizations can cause autism.

His book, “Autism’s False Prophets,” takes on British researcher Dr. Andrew Wakefield, whose now-debunked 1998 study in the prestigious Lancet medical journal linked the measles, mumps and rubella vaccine to autism. It also criticizes organized groups that advise parents to avoid vaccinating their children for fear the vaccines may cause autism.

The issue is at the center of a vociferous and often vicious debate, despite the preponderance of scientific opinion in favor of vaccination. Offit has endured hate-filled letters, death threats and even a phone call that menaced his children. However, his book was greeted with an outpouring of support from parents of children with autism who had previously remained silent.

“It’s actually been exactly the opposite of what I would have guessed,” Offit said in an interview. One mother of an 8-year-old autistic boy wrote: “It really angers me when I hear others vilify you.”

Another example: “I am a very unpopular mother at my children’s school as I do advocate that children need to get their shots,” writes the mother of a 10-year-old boy with autism.[quote]
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