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PhilBiker
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 1326
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 Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 9:45 am Post subject: THE Lighting Thread (merged) |
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Hey I have changed out most if the light bulbs in my house from incandescent to fluorescent.
However, I was thinking...
Maybe in the winter incandescants are more efficient?
One of the big knocks on incandescents is that they give off so much heat. Well, in the winter I want that. Sure they're not as efficient as my gas furnace, but hey when I use them in the winter time I'm getting "double duty" from the energy expended. I'm getting both light and heat from one device. |
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VMA131Marine
Tar Sands
Joined: Jul 05, 2004
Posts: 58
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:41 pm Post subject: |
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| PhilBiker wrote: | Hey I have changed out most if the light bulbs in my house from incandescent to fluorescent.
Maybe in the winter incandescants are more efficient? |
True, flourescents convert a much higher fraction of input power to light and thus require less power to generate the same amount of light as an incandescent bulb. However, ultimately all the power input to both types of fixture ends up as heat in your house (assuming your windows are shaded). There is no "double-duty"as you put it, light is just another form of energy that gets converted to heat when it's absorbed by the walls, floor, ceiling and furnishings of your house.
The thing is, that to get 1 Watt-hr of heat from electricity at your house takes 3 to 4 Watt-hours of energy at the power plant that generates it. Most likely, that energy comes from natural gas or coal. Meanwhile, your gas furnace puts 80-90% of the heat it generates into your house. Taken as a complete system, it's much more efficient to create the heat you need by burning it at your house than by burning it at the power plant . |
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skateari
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Sep 26, 2004
Posts: 548
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| Posted: Thu Dec 16, 2004 2:37 pm Post subject: |
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| Good post VMA.. I was kinda wondering the same thing myself, thanks |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Sun Dec 19, 2004 8:26 pm Post subject: |
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| VMA131Marine wrote: |
The thing is, that to get 1 Watt-hr of heat from electricity at your house takes 3 to 4 Watt-hours of energy at the power plant that generates it. Most likely, that energy comes from natural gas or coal. Meanwhile, your gas furnace puts 80-90% of the heat it generates into your house. Taken as a complete system, it's much more efficient to create the heat you need by burning it at your house than by burning it at the power plant . |
This is spot on, and something everyone needs to have down. Consider for a moment how we heat water for our shower in most homes:
LNG is used to heat water/to produce steam/the water is used to turn a turbine/the turbine spins a generator/the generator produces electricity/the electricity is sent to a step-up transformer/ it is converted to high voltage/ this is transferred over power lines to a substation/then sent to a step-down transformer/and transferred to your house/where it heats a coil/ to heat your water.
Every / bar represents energy being transferred from one form to another with a loss of available energy (entropy) at each point.
If we used LNG at our home to heat water, we would have only one conversion. LNG to hot water. While this is certainly “technology,” it is more efficient than the first, in terms of energy use and entropy.
Whatever solutions we come up with must be focused on decentralization of energy production. Point of use. No power grids, no pipelines, no trucking systems, and no mass production. Small, simple, local, independent, labor intensive, and no machine-made assembly; hands-on quality that builds things to last.
_________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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PhilBiker
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jun 30, 2004
Posts: 1326
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 8:48 am Post subject: |
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| I don't think gas fired water heaters are as rare as you seem to think Monte. My current house and my previous one both had gas fired water heaters, they're the norm around here. |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Mon Dec 20, 2004 5:26 pm Post subject: |
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| PhilBiker wrote: | | I don't think gas fired water heaters are as rare as you seem to think Monte. My current house and my previous one both had gas fired water heaters, they're the norm around here. |
I guess it depends on where you live. In Socal, where I just moved from, "all electric" is the the rage in the homes I was working on. But I was more focusing on the inefficiency of centralized energy production and lost over power line transmissions and energy conversions.
_________________
A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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gg3
Expert
Joined: May 24, 2004
Posts: 3429
Location: California, USA
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| Posted: Sun Dec 26, 2004 5:49 pm Post subject: |
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I have a gas water heater.
A few years ago I found that whilst working at my desk I could keep the house heat (gas) down to a minimum level and provide a small spot of acceptable warmth at my desk by using a reflectorized "heat lamp" rather than a portable electric heater. That is, 60 watts rather than 1,000. |
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BabyPeanut
Fusion
Joined: Aug 17, 2004
Posts: 3541
Location: 39° 39' N 77° 77' W or thereabouts
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| Posted: Tue Dec 28, 2004 12:26 pm Post subject: Re: Winter - time to pull out the incandescent bulbs? |
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| PhilBiker wrote: | | Maybe in the winter incandescants are more efficient? |
Do your lightbulbs just heat the ceiling? I think a space heater would do better if the heat came out at the floor level.
I think going after energy savings in this way is a much lower priority than a lot of other things you could be doing. |
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bruin
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 377
Location: CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:01 pm Post subject: What is the real cost of one 100W light bulb per month? |
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How much does it cost to leave a 100W light bulb on all month long?
From there one could figure in the real hours per month it is on or a lesser wattage bulb.
We have a ton of lights on in the house all day long and I'm trying to convice the family members to shut them off. |
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Madpaddy
Expert
Joined: Jun 25, 2004
Posts: 2087
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:14 pm Post subject: |
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100w x 24 x 30 / 1000 = 72 kwh per month x approx 12c per kwh = $8.64 per bulb per month.
Switching to a cfl (compact fluorescent) should cut this to $1.80 per month and the bulb will also have a longer lifespan.
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www.askaboutenergy.com |
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Andy
Intermediate Crude
Joined: May 16, 2004
Posts: 519
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:15 pm Post subject: |
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| In one day, that one 100W bulb will burn 2.4 KWHrs, hence burning 72 KWhrs per 30 day month. Assuming electricity at 8c per KWHr, that is nearly $6 per month for one lousy bulb. If you have 10 bulbs running like that, that is nearly $60. |
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Kingcoal
Expert
Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 2330
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:46 pm Post subject: |
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| Why not just charge your familly for the electricity? I get sick and tired of turning lights off myself. |
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aahala
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Feb 03, 2005
Posts: 954
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 2:52 pm Post subject: |
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In the last six months, I replaced all my old light bulbs to CFLs.
Midway in the process, I discovered two major US home improvement chains in my area selling 60-w CFLs <$2. Homedepot, 6 for $10 has been continiously and Lowes 3 for $6 more or less off and on during this period. |
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BabyPeanut
Fusion
Joined: Aug 17, 2004
Posts: 3541
Location: 39° 39' N 77° 77' W or thereabouts
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:22 pm Post subject: |
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| Kingcoal wrote: | | Why not just charge your familly for the electricity? I get sick and tired of turning lights off myself. |
Install coin-op switches. |
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bruin
Heavy Crude
Joined: Dec 09, 2004
Posts: 377
Location: CA, USA
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| Posted: Thu Feb 03, 2005 3:31 pm Post subject: |
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I've thought of those motion senser deals where it turns off without any activity after awhile.
Thanks for the math! |
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