Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:16 pm Post subject: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Hi everybody,
A growing group of analysts are explaining the current oil prices as being driven by speculation and not fundamental factors.
I also tend to agree, but I might be wrong. (It wouldn't be the first time...)
One thing is sure - no one seems to know exactly what the demand and supply looks like.
I have read somewhere that BP has made a study and the world so far has burned 1 trillion barrels. They also say there are another confirmed 1 trillion barrels left and another unconfirmed 1 trillion.
That should last for another 42 years, they say.
This does not sound so bad.
On the other hand, looking at the sweet light oil weekly chart, the average traded volume has suddenly doubled mid Sept 2007 and then doubled again mid Dec 2007. This looks like increased speculation to me. It is hard to believe the "real" oil consumers have suddenly doubled theirs requirements twice within 3 months.
Also the recent (shocking) rally was explained by some analysts as being caused by the ECB comments about inflation causing the USD to fall. There seems to be a possibility that some uninspired financial entities are hedging against the USD fall through buying oil.
What do you think is really happening?
Does anyone have a better theory?
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5350 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Johny_Bloggsy wrote:
Hi everybody...the average traded volume has suddenly doubled mid Sept 2007 and then doubled again mid Dec 2007. This looks like increased speculation to me. It is hard to believe the "real" oil consumers have suddenly doubled theirs requirements twice within 3 months.
A contract can be resold several times. The same oil contracted at, say, $125/barrel can be resold at $130 and then at $138 if there is are buyers willing to pay the higher prices.
The 2x-4x increase in trade volume does not mean there was an identical increase in oil deliveries or oil consumption.
All higher oil prices mean is that there are buyers out there willing to pay higher prices in the market to get the oil---- Oil imports to the US are decreasing so the increases in demand are coming from China and India.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:14 pm Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Johny_Bloggsy wrote:
A growing group of analysts are explaining the current oil prices as being driven by speculation and not fundamental factors.
Current oil prices are being driven by a lack of spare capacity, a declining dollar, and the "fundamental" fact that oil is a finite resource soon to peak in production.
Many investors know this. It isn't "speculation", but a sure bet.
Four years ago on this site I said as much. When the market gets wind of the reality of peak oil, the price will spike long before the peak arrives.
Peak oil is an economic event. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:21 pm Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Plantagenet wrote:
Johny_Bloggsy wrote:
Hi everybody...the average traded volume has suddenly doubled mid Sept 2007 and then doubled again mid Dec 2007. This looks like increased speculation to me. It is hard to believe the "real" oil consumers have suddenly doubled theirs requirements twice within 3 months.
A contract can be resold several times. The same oil contracted at, say, $125/barrel can be resold at $130 and then at $138 if there is are buyers willing to pay the higher prices.
The 2x-4x increase in trade volume does not mean there was an identical increase in oil deliveries or oil consumption.
All higher oil prices mean is that there are buyers out there willing to pay higher prices in the market to get the oil---- Oil imports to the US are decreasing so the increases in demand are coming from China and India.
Ok. So it is intraday trading. People buy and sell oil within the same day.
India has announced recently that it will reduce the subsidies and retail price has climbed. That is very good news.
I wonder when will China follow suit... Maybe after the Olympics?
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 11:40 pm Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Johny_Bloggsy wrote:
confirmed 1 trillion barrels left and another unconfirmed 1 trillion.
That should last for another 42 years, they say.
This does not sound so bad.
These numbers have at least two serious flaws:
- the 42 years is based on zero growth, when in fact - if things would continue as they have - demand would keep growing, leading to an exponential curve (and not a rectangle!). Then this number would come down very quickly to something like 15-20 years at best.
- in addition, this assumes we can simply extract all oil until the last drop without any problems, as if it were all in a bathtub that can be drained. Even they should know that it will never be possible to extract all the oil (not even close!). As soon as it takes more energy to get the oil than is in the oil, that oil will not be recoverable anymore
So if you factor in those two issues, then suddenly we are back at a peak within the next say 5-10 years or so... (that is of course still very optimistic)
I recommend the video by A. Bartlett on exponential growth on youtube:
Joined: Aug 14, 2007 Posts: 238 Location: Montreal Canada
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 1:43 am Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Johny_Bloggsy wrote:
Hi everybody,
A growing group of analysts are explaining the current oil prices as being driven by speculation and not fundamental factors.
I also tend to agree, but I might be wrong. (It wouldn't be the first time...)
You are dead wrong. To be sure about that read this fast Why oil costs over $130 per barrel: the decline of North Sea Oil, and if you understand some simple things, maybe you'll start taking this reality called peak-oil pretty seriously.
Good luck! You need it.
Posted: Tue Jun 10, 2008 2:50 am Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
Johny_Bloggsy wrote:
Hi everybody,
A growing group of analysts are explaining the current oil prices as being driven by speculation and not fundamental factors.
I also tend to agree, but I might be wrong. (It wouldn't be the first time...)
One thing is sure - no one seems to know exactly what the demand and supply looks like.
I have read somewhere that BP has made a study and the world so far has burned 1 trillion barrels. They also say there are another confirmed 1 trillion barrels left and another unconfirmed 1 trillion.
That should last for another 42 years, they say.
This does not sound so bad.
On the other hand, looking at the sweet light oil weekly chart, the average traded volume has suddenly doubled mid Sept 2007 and then doubled again mid Dec 2007. This looks like increased speculation to me. It is hard to believe the "real" oil consumers have suddenly doubled theirs requirements twice within 3 months.
Also the recent (shocking) rally was explained by some analysts as being caused by the ECB comments about inflation causing the USD to fall. There seems to be a possibility that some uninspired financial entities are hedging against the USD fall through buying oil.
What do you think is really happening?
Does anyone have a better theory?
Supply has been flat for three years while demand has grown. Econ 101 says price goes up. Now the spec factor is the question of whether we have reached peak or not. Light Sweet Crude has peaked and that was the whole ball game. There are no more rosy promises of 120 mbpd by 2030. There is report coming out in November about the state of 250 of the worlds major oil fields. Unless it is a complete microwave job we will see then where things lie. My suspicion is that some of the information is already being leaked and combined with the other things I mentioned traders want to be in on the move. The bubble won't burst yet, we have a few hurricanes and some other random things to go through this summer. It will be a true terror to the US to hit $5.60 for gas and suddenly everyone is trying to cut back and then the news 'US demand drops sharply' only to be followed by the headline 'World Peak Oil announced: prodution expected to decline by x% per year.' If someone find another Ghawar somewhere, hey we get a breather. I doubt that will happen and I think that we are going to have to shave off demand for oil which will help drop prices a bit, but we will be in the same situation much sooner than we want to be. Peak is here. That is my bet. Alot of us here will feel much better when it finally does arrive, right now everything points to it, but the decline down the other side has not begun. Where do we go in America! I think alot of people will hunker down, cut back, but does it help, no. The middle class and upper middle class are still mostly employed and making good money and they are'nt going to really care until the day there is no gas at the station or no food on the shelves. So I think price potentially has alot further to rise. But then I am in suspense with everyone to see what happens in the fall with that report from the IEA. It would be nice if we just got a break, some really good news, some advantageous finds that will allow us to ease price enough to get going more on alternatives. Time will tell. The peak oil story does not end well for one of the next few generations, we know that for sure. It's just a matter of how soon and how bad the impacts.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:57 am Post subject: Re: Oil - Fundamentals vs Speculation
I believe that the general consensus is that we're going to run out of oil in some not so distant future.
However, I also believe that the price recently has risen too much too fast to be driven by fundamentals only. Markets are not efficient. They are irrational.
I don't know if it is true what's been published but the most recent piece of news that seems to confirm my hypothesis is here:
http://www.reuters.com/article/newsOne/idUSWLA462520080610
Since the article might be removed soon, I took the liberty to cut and paste it below:
LONDON (Reuters) - OPEC's Secretary General on Tuesday appealed for calm, saying the record-high crude oil price was unbearable and did not reflect any shortage of supply in the market.
Abdullah al-Badri also called for measures to curb market speculation, a factor OPEC says is sending prices to unjustified levels. Oil hit a record $139.12 a barrel on Friday and was trading near $136 on Tuesday.
"I ask through you, through Reuters, really we need some calm. We are panicking too much," Badri told the Reuters Global Energy Summit.
"The situation is unbearable as far as we are concerned. I want to say, there is no shortage now and in the future."
The comments are the latest to underscore the view of the Organization of the Petroleum Exporting Countries that it is pumping more than enough oil and high prices reflect factors beyond its control.
"We are not happy with the current level of price for one reason. It has nothing to do with the fundamentals," he said.
"Speculators are playing a big role in high oil prices. Also there are other considerations, the value of the dollar and the geopolitical situation."
Saudi Arabia, the world's top exporter and OPEC's most influential member, said on Monday it would soon call for a meeting to discuss what it called unjustified rises in prices.
NO DEMAND FOR MORE
OPEC, source of two in every five barrels of oil, is pumping 32.2 million barrels per day (bpd), more than estimates of demand for its oil in 2008, Badri said.
The International Energy Agency, adviser to 27 industrialized countries, on Tuesday raised its forecast for the need for OPEC oil this year by 300,000 bpd to 31.6 million bpd -- still below OPEC's output.
In support of his point that prices are being driven by factors other than supply, Badri said world consumption of 87 million bpd is smaller than the value of trading in oil-related financial instruments.
Badri said the "paper market" equaled about 1.36 billion bpd and he was critical of investment banks, some of whose forecasts for rising prices have been partly credited for sending oil to new peaks.
"Their practice at this time is not in favor of producers and consumers," he said. "We really cannot be guided by one or two speculators."
OPEC, which currently has 13 member-countries, was willing to raise production if needed, although there was no demand for extra barrels.
"Nobody is asking for oil at this time. We are checking with our member countries. There is no queue for oil," he said.
The IEA on Tuesday cut its forecast for world oil demand growth in 2008 by 230,000 bpd to 800,000 bpd, citing the impact on consumption of fuel subsidy cuts in Asia.
Demand remains robust despite rising prices and Badri said OPEC would not make as large a reduction in demand when it publishes its latest forecasts.
"Maybe we would reduce by 40,000-50,000 barrels per day in the next report, but not more," he said, referring to OPEC's Monthly Oil Market Report for June scheduled to be published on Friday.
"With the high price, there will be a slowdown in demand. There's no doubt about it, but I don't think it's as much as the IEA forecast."
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The only question is: Are these people lying? Because if they're not we should enjoy some cheaper oil soon, for maybe another 10 years or so...
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