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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 12:26 pm 
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Heavy Crude
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I always pay with a credit card vice debit for on-line orders. Since I never carry a balance on my credit cards, interest rate is not a factor. Your liability for credit card fraud is $50.00, for debit cards there is no limit. I use the debit for grocery purchases etc.

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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 2:33 pm 
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http://www.walletpop.com/blog/2009/10/21/delinquency-rates-increasing-on-credit-cards/

http://www.creditcards.com/credit-card-news/credit-card-industry-facts-personal-debt-statistics-1276.php#topofpage

http://www.indexcreditcards.com/credit-card-rates-monitor/

Well let's see if we can figure out what they are thinking.....
Code:
Citibank   
92,000,000   consumers
102,540,000,000   credit outstanding
0.055   overdue percentage
86940000   remaining consumers
5,060,000   consumers overdue
$1,114.57    average balance
$5,639,700,000    exposure due to overdue consumers

50,600,000    consumers that do not pay off balance
$1,114.57    Average balance
$56,397,000,000    Total charges outstanding

0.1539   Interest Rate
$8,679,498,300    Annual Interest Income

50,600,000    consumers that do not pay off balance
$111.46    amount that needs to be extracted from each consumer
0.100   Additional interest needed to extract that amount from each consumer

0.254   New annual interest rate


You figure that 5% of your consumers are over 30 days overdue, and are going to leave you holding the bag for something on the order of $5B......

You only made about $8B per year in interest on the remaining customers, since, on average 45% of the credit card holders carry "zero" balance....

So you have to extract that money from the remaining consumers, either by fees, or by raising the interest rate you charge......

And although you love all consumers, because of the charges you can extract from retailers when they use your card, you would really like to increase the number of people over which you can spread that $5B, or at the very least, reduce the number of consumers that you have that, for example, just keep their credit cards around for emergencies, because that costs you overhead, but does not bring in any income.... So that is why a lot of people who carry small balances are being dumped, or alternately, some annual fee is now being charged for administration....or, why if you live in one of the counties on here that are in blue, you and your neighbors could have a significantly higher risk of being a defaulter.... County of residence is often a pretty good predictor....

http://data.newyorkfed.org/creditconditions/

The other alternative, of course, is for them to just increase their interest rates. In order to make up for that five percent delinquencies, per the above calculation, they need to charge their non-balance paying consumers an additional 10% per year, which would bring the average credit card interest rate up to about 25%.

I don't know if you have been catching the "credit revolt" chick on any of the TV shows:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/26/ann-minch-to-chase-bank-a_n_333625.html

but she is complaining about Bank of America increasing her interest rate up to 30% which caused a national outcry and caused her to be practically a celebrity:

Here's the calculation for Bank of America:
Code:
Bank of America               
80,200,000   consumers
150,000,000,000   credit outstanding
0.0753   overdue percentage
74160940   remaining consumers
6,039,060   consumers overdue
$1,870.32    average balance
$11,295,000,000    exposure due to overdue consumers

44,110,000    consumers that do not pay off balance
$1,870.32    Average balance
$82,500,000,000    Total charges outstanding

0.1539   Interest Rate
$12,696,750,000    Annual Interest Income

44,110,000    consumers that do not pay off balance
$256.06    amount that needs to be extracted from each consumer
0.137   Additional interest needed to extract that amount from each consumer

0.291   annual interest rate


The 30% interest rate that people are talking about is almost exactly the amount it would take to recover that $11B or so that their higher-than-average 7.5% delinquency rate is causing them to have to write off!

So it is pretty simple and the numbers roughly work out, provided some of our simplifying assumptions are pretty close to correct.

By their calculation that 5-7% (and growing) percent of people that are overdue will not pay their balance back.....So, in order to make that money up, they will use a variety of ways, including fees, late charges, administration fees, paper billing fees, electronic billing fees and any of a dozen things to try to raise some money.

Can you see that when the percentage gets to be some level, like right about now, the whole system will implode? People will tear up their cards, no longer put on balances, and there will be no way for the credit card people to extract that money. The credit card business will no longer be profitable at these levels of delinquency, particularly if even more consumers refuse to pay off their balance. At some point point, someone will do they should have done long ago, which is what they used to do back in the 70's before deregulation, which is to scale down their entire business and only give credit to people who are credit-worthy! Can you imagine?

At that point, the credit-card fueled consumer economy will grind to the screeching halt that Kunstler has been rooting for, and people will have to start living within their means, whatever that may be.

Here, by the way, is a link to the excellent Frontline show on the origin of all of this stuff....including the practice of locating the businesses in states that allow the instant increase of consumer rates without notice on the whim of the company....

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/eight/

By the way, I should add..... If the delinquency rate goes up to 10%, B of A will have to raise their interest rate to 33% to break even. And, at 19% delinquencies, the rate will be 50%, so you can see the brick wall point is actually pretty close to where we are right now...


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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 6:59 pm 
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How pretty that some of the posters here have "their ducks in a row" while the rest of the ship is sinkin..
Obviously retirees talking..
Good luck facing death!
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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Mon Oct 26, 2009 7:14 pm 
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Quote:
WASHINGTON — Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd, who is fighting for his political survival, proposed Monday an immediate interest rate freeze on existing balances for the estimated 700 million credit cards in circulation.


[url]Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/2 ... 34633.html[/url]

By the way....

Chris Dodd was one of the chief felons who pushed through the bank bailout WITHOUT any accountability for the idiot managers that ran the system into the ground, and WITHOUT any sort of correction in the inexcusable reward-for-failure stituation that we now have with the bonuses....and as a result, should be one of the first ones hung by his genitals from one of the flagpoles at the corner of Wall and Broad....

but in light of the previous conversation, and two calculations, can you now see that this is quite possibly the stupidest idea ever, certain to kill the credit card industry, and quite possibly the banking industry, and is 100 percent political posturing?


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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 3:38 am 
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pup55 wrote:
Quote:
WASHINGTON — Senate Banking Committee Chairman Chris Dodd, who is fighting for his political survival, proposed Monday an immediate interest rate freeze on existing balances for the estimated 700 million credit cards in circulation.


[url]Read more at: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2009/10/2 ... 34633.html[/url]

By the way....

Chris Dodd was one of the chief felons who pushed through the bank bailout WITHOUT any accountability for the idiot managers that ran the system into the ground, and WITHOUT any sort of correction in the inexcusable reward-for-failure stituation that we now have with the bonuses....and as a result, should be one of the first ones hung by his genitals from one of the flagpoles at the corner of Wall and Broad....

but in light of the previous conversation, and two calculations, can you now see that this is quite possibly the stupidest idea ever, certain to kill the credit card industry, and quite possibly the banking industry, and is 100 percent political posturing?


Worse yet while flipping channels last night when I got home from work I saw a video clip of Barney Frank insisting that all none bank financial institutions would be eliminated. IOW no more credit unions, no more mortgage companies etc etc...

What the heck are these guys thinking? A lot of us rely on none bank financial institutions to buy cars, houses, whatever. Take them out of the mix by fiat and you will kill the economy a lot deader than it already is!

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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Tue Oct 27, 2009 5:08 am 
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Quote:
all none bank financial institutions would be eliminated.


Oh, that will be the day. The day that law is passed makes various organized crime organizations even wealthier because a black market will spring up...for that segment of the population that is unable to go to the bank and get money for whatever reason.

The "payday loan business" is estimated to be about $42B but serves a part of the market that, whatever else you say, has need for its services, and is growing....That goes away and where do these people go for money?

I think there are three flagpoles on the NYSE building....Room for one more....

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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:24 pm 
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Heavy Crude
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Joined: Fri May 06, 2005 12:00 am
Posts: 221
Location: North Texas
VZR1800 wrote:
My wife and I have no credit cards.
Wake me when you are there.
Who f--kin needs them?
More trouble than they are worth!


I have excellent credit and therefore have a Citibank Platinum Dividend card. Every year, Citibank pays me about $125 in cash from my cashback awards and I pay them jack squat. It's just like anything else, learn to work the system they setup to your advantage.


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 Post subject: Re: Citibank yanks MasterCards
New postPosted: Wed Nov 04, 2009 10:44 pm 
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Good plan Kez. But this only works if you use your credit card frequently charging a fairly decent amount each year. For infrequent users like me ... like most.... who charge less than a few grand each year it may make more sense to simply pay off a free card each month. Receive nothing.... pay nothing.

We use another free card strictly for Costco... we charge more on it.... and pay it off each month.... and it pays us enough to get free annual executive membership.

We've received no ugly notices from either.

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