Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Basically, a H2 electrolyser/fuel cell co CEO says:
"Renewable energy without storage offers no energy security solution and little in the way of CO2 reduction. There’s no point in building 20 new wind farms if you have to simultaneously run back-up power stations in parallel to provide electricity in case the wind drops and the turbines don’t turn.
But if you can store the excess energy produced when conditions are good, then you have a real clean energy solution. And this is what you have with hydrogen and it’s the vital link.
Buffer storage of hydrogen allows you to use energy when you need it and it’s central to any power grid system. But politicians and even some advocates of clean power seem to be blind to this.
This is what I've been saying for months, so obviously I agree with him.
Basically, a H2 electrolyser/fuel cell co CEO says:
"Renewable energy without storage offers no energy security solution and little in the way of CO2 reduction. There’s no point in building 20 new wind farms if you have to simultaneously run back-up power stations in parallel to provide electricity in case the wind drops and the turbines don’t turn.
But if you can store the excess energy produced when conditions are good, then you have a real clean energy solution. And this is what you have with hydrogen and it’s the vital link.
Buffer storage of hydrogen allows you to use energy when you need it and it’s central to any power grid system. But politicians and even some advocates of clean power seem to be blind to this.
This is what I've been saying for months, so obviously I agree with him.
If you are going to do that why not use the H2 as a reactant with CO2 and manufacture Methane? It stores 10 times easier, has greater energy density, and if you are using atmospheric CO2 it is carbon neutral. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
If you are going to do that why not use the H2 as a reactant with CO2 and manufacture Methane? It stores 10 times easier, has greater energy density, and if you are using atmospheric CO2 it is carbon neutral.
Well the molecular weight of CH4 is certainly higher than H2, but I think his point is that the H2 could be burnt the next day at peak times, e.g. generate H2 between 1-6am when the demand is low, and burn at 8pm (or whenever) when it's high.
Routinely generating methane is another step with inevitable losses, and more plant/catalsyts etc.required.
H2 is storable for short periods anyway; the old style 'town gas' generated from coal was up to 50% H, and that's Victorian technology.
If you are going to do that why not use the H2 as a reactant with CO2 and manufacture Methane? It stores 10 times easier, has greater energy density, and if you are using atmospheric CO2 it is carbon neutral.
Well the molecular weight of CH4 is certainly higher than H2, but I think his point is that the H2 could be burnt the next day at peak times, e.g. generate H2 between 1-6am when the demand is low, and burn at 8pm (or whenever) when it's high.
Routinely generating methane is another step with inevitable losses, and more plant/catalsyts etc.required.
H2 is storable for short periods anyway; the old style 'town gas' generated from coal was up to 50% H, and that's Victorian technology.
If I were designing the system I would not sell the electricity generated by wind at any point, I would use it for electrolysis/Methane production whenever it was availible. The infrastructure to store and use Methane is already in place, no need to do anything complex you just build a methane production facility at each windfarm and tie it into the existing network. You don't have to worry about boom and bust on the electrical grid because the wind energy is always used to create storable product.
Of course I am not designing the system and the people building it will do what they want within the allowable boundries emplaced by the Government. _________________ Always appeal to a man's enlightened self interest, you can trust him to look out for himself honestly, It's when you appeal to his Honor or the Common Good that he stops paying attention.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4527 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Fri Sep 19, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen Electrolyser co CEO slates wind turbines...
Tanada wrote:
If I were designing the system I would not sell the electricity generated by wind at any point, I would use it for electrolysis/Methane production whenever it was availible.
What is the efficiency of converting wind power into compressed H2? And if you convert it back to electricity by burning it in turbines rather than fuel cells, don't those losses really start to add up? Renewables already have problems generating enough electricity for immediate use. So if you want to peak shave, you're going to want to use every last deferred electron. It seems like a technology such as EESTORs or vanadium-redox would be better, something with fewer losses. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 12:32 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen Electrolyser co CEO slates wind turbines...
mos6507 wrote:
What is the efficiency of converting wind power into compressed H2? And if you convert it back to electricity by burning it in turbines rather than fuel cells, don't those losses really start to add up? Renewables already have problems generating enough electricity for immediate use. So if you want to peak shave, you're going to want to use every last deferred electron. It seems like a technology such as EESTORs or vanadium-redox would be better, something with fewer losses.
For industrial apps ~70-90% in electrolysis and ~40-50% back to electricity in large diesels or suitable turbines. This places the total efficiency at 30-45%, so for class 6 wind power that's 9-13+c/kWh plus the costs of the electrolysis/generating equipment. Probably not competative with baseload, but definitely cheaper than peaker rates... Course, the cheapest investment by far is a negawatt. It's only ~2-8cents/kWh to subsidize efficiency and public awareness stuff. I can't work forever, but I'd guess that the average American could see use a third to a half of the electricity they use w/ little to no loss in functionality or wealth over the long run. _________________
Basically, a H2 electrolyser/fuel cell co CEO says:
"[i]Renewable energy without storage offers no energy security solution and little in the way of CO2 reduction. There’s no point in building 20 new wind farms if you have to simultaneously run back-up power stations in parallel to provide electricity in case the wind drops and the turbines don’t turn.
I agree with the last sentence. What I don't agree with the implicit claim one must simultaneously run backup power in exact parallel.
First, unless the only source of power is wind, there will be others
in operation. Some of these other sources, like coal and nuclear,
are not so good at large instant upticks in production, but NG
and hydro are. Second, 20 wind farms have a low probablility of
going from a large amount of production to near zero in a short
time frame. This outcome is even less likely to be a surprise,
wind prediction isn't perfect, but it isn't a dark science either.
In the Texas event a few months ago, wind power dropped by
a large percentage(but not really close to 100%) and electrical
demand increased sharped, the hours in question nearly led
to wide spread blackouts.
The impression some may have gotten reading this item, was
that wind was to blame. Well, the surge in demand far outpaced
the drop in wind power. And the direction of both WERE known
by anyone who read the previous day's weather
forecast -- higher temps and lower wind speeds tomorrow.
Joined: Mar 07, 2007 Posts: 389 Location: Holland, Belgica Foederata (Republic of the Seven United Netherlands)
Posted: Sat Sep 20, 2008 9:43 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen Electrolyser co CEO slates wind turbines...
As long as we are still using natural gas to make hydrogen and electricity, it's not economic to make methane through wind power. Make hydrogen and sell it to companies that currently use NG to make hydrogen. Or use wind power to drive pumps etc to store energy or use batteries.
Joined: May 17, 2008 Posts: 53 Location: UK, Yorkshire
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 2:33 am Post subject: Re: Hydrogen Electrolyser co CEO slates wind turbines...
I found the full article on the ITM website, so if you want to read 'from the horses mouth' then its ITM press release (warning 320k PDF!).
My own view is that storage of off peak renewable's output is the key to economic long term power generation, whether it's H2 or some other 'battery'.
On the way to work I pass a factory/research centre that's had 2 huge wind turbines erected onsite. The place is empty at weekends, yet the blades keep turning (I don't know if the turbines are grid connected tho').
Basically it's like a cross between a battery and a fuel cell. Vanadium sounds like a rare element but there is a lot of it being produced as a byproduct of oil/gas drilling and not a lot of other industrial uses for it.
Unfortunately this is one of a long string a companies that has some promising tech which is just kind of sitting there in the shadows underutilized.
From the FAQ:
"The system provides a roundtrip efficiency of 65 - 75%. Therefore with the input of 25 -35% additional power to cover the losses, you can get 1 hour of discharge for every hour of charge. A practical charge discharge ratio for optimal performance is about 1.8 to 1."
So that's worse than most batteries, but maybe better than hydrogen. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Joined: May 26, 2008 Posts: 1178 Location: Chicago, IL
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 3:11 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen Electrolyser co CEO slates wind turbines...
newbonic wrote:
This is what I've been saying for months, so obviously I agree with him.
There's nothing new in his statement. "People" have been saying it for years. However, whether you storage wind energy with hydrogen, compressed air, water, whatever, it does not solve the problem of meeting unsatiable always-ready demand with yet one more technology.
What you need at the end is conservation, demand destruction, powerdown, etc. That's how you solve the real problem. My 2 cents. _________________ 9/29/08, cube, The Dow will drop to 4,000 within 2 years
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4527 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Oct 11, 2008 10:05 pm Post subject: Re: Hydrogen Electrolyser co CEO slates wind turbines...
VMarcHart wrote:
What you need at the end is conservation, demand destruction, powerdown, etc. That's how you solve the real problem. My 2 cents.
And of course even that yields diminishing returns without POPULATION reduction. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
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