We are entering the stage where ideology and education about sustainability and living within carrying capacity will be augmented by the reality of identifiable consequences of our overshoot. External consequences like the peaking and decline of below ground energy and commodity resources, above ground environmental degradation of our climate, soils, fisheries and climate will have a profound effect on our culture.
2009 is the year when we start to feel it.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13890 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
RedStateGreen wrote:
It might be good for those of us in drivable proximity to each other to network. If one is burned out or flooded out, they can take their portable preps and go to the other's place.
Does anyone trust each other enough for that? _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 3:55 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
Ludi wrote:
RedStateGreen wrote:
It might be good for those of us in drivable proximity to each other to network. If one is burned out or flooded out, they can take their portable preps and go to the other's place.
Does anyone trust each other enough for that?
Jack's pretty close to you right? What could go wrong?
-G _________________ I Have and will continue to vote against ANY politician who supports the various bailouts. Curse you for selling out our future for status quo now!
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 5283 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 8:37 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
Living the life of a refugee is not for everyone. I have really taken the ending of What a Way to Go to heart. The narrator felt that in the end rather than constantly seeking a safe haven, the healthier approach is to just ask yourself where you feel you belong, then plant yourself down and make your final stand. _________________ http://doomsteaddiary.blogspot.com/
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1645 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Thu Aug 21, 2008 9:12 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
mos6507 wrote:
Living the life of a refugee is not for everyone. I have really taken the ending of What a Way to Go to heart. The narrator felt that in the end rather than constantly seeking a safe haven, the healthier approach is to just ask yourself where you feel you belong, then plant yourself down and make your final stand.
In that case I'd go back to California, but I'm not sure that's the best choice right now. _________________ Conservation is conservative
efarmer wrote:
"Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"
Posted: Fri Aug 22, 2008 12:09 am Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
RedStateGreen wrote:
ReverseEngineer wrote:
For this Disaster, this is one reason the roads won't necessarily clog up. Many if not most people will still be in denial, and they won't consider the most recent removal of their individual rights to be "worthy" of Bugging Out and taking your chances in the Wilderness with all your gear. This is where Critical Thinking skills can save you. You have to grasp when your LAST CHANCE has come to get out before you are TRAPPED.
Its up to each individual to make that decision, to say to themselves, "Its GONE. I HAVE to GET OUT NOW!"
I made that decision 2 years ago, a little early I guess. Its still possible to get out. How much longer though I cannot predict.
Reverse Engineer
Get out to where, though? Another country? Some mythical place in the US where no one can find you? I'm not sure what you're talking about.
WHERE to go? In the Lower 48, a very difficult question to answer.
One annoying poster in another thread suggests his Survival Palace in North Idaho as a Great Survival Location. You might drive your Convoy toward his place and take it over, if you have superior force and weapons Or throw in together with him as a more Diplomatic solution.
Now, the likelihood anyone here has the financial wherewithal by themselves to outfit 10 tractor-trailers with say a livestock trailer pulling horses, a couple of tanker trailers full of diesel & gasoline, a couple of trailers full of food, a couple of flatbeds with building materials, another with an Armory etc etc etc is pretty small. However, there are a couple of alternatives here if you don't actually have the money to do this.
One would be to assemble a Virtual Community of Truckdrivers currently pulling these goods all over the country. When TSHTF, you send out the word as a text to every driver on your list: "CODE PEAK". This is the ACTION call. "BRAZOS!!!" for those of you who remember a TV Movie about a bunch of old TX Rangers who linked together to call to action when needed. They don't actually OWN the goods they are pulling, but do you really care? As long as they show up at the predetermined meeting point you are now working outside the current Laws regarding property anyhow.
The Tractor Trailer idea is at the far end of what might be plausible, but you could do pretty close to this with large SUVs and Pickups and 5th wheel trailers. In this case, if you just convince say 10 friends that this is a good Security Measure for the family they can afford and then make lists of what each family will pack in their Bug Out Vehicle and make sure there is enough fuel actually being pulled to get your convoy at least 500 miles out from a densely populated area, you already have upped your survivability quotient by a long shot over sitting in your city Condo waiting for the Zombies to come out of the woodwork.
Everybody is Packing Heat, and you make NO STOPS on your way to whatever location it is you think is the best choice at the time TSHTF. Are the roads going to be clogged up with people trying to escape? No, this is not like Katrina bearing down on the city, people will be confused and not really sure where to go, if anywhere, as we cannot really pick out the Perfect Spot right now. However, at least we are thinking about this in ADVANCE, and can identify some good possibilities.
The low populations areas around State and National Parks are probably the best choices, but there are SOME folks living there and it would be a good idea to make friends with them. If you show up IN FORCE with WEAPONS in a CONVOY and lots of food with you, I think they would be predisposed to becoming friends with you They already might have Cabins and shelters built, and I think as long as you brought at least enough food for yourselves and some to share with them, they would open up their homes to you. Better of course would be to visit these areas NOW, and start to make some friends in advance.
In all scenarios, its the GROUP that has the survival advantage over the INDIVIDUAL. The bigger the group you can assemble, the better your chances are.
The biggest obstacle to making such a Plan here has already been mentioned. Its the TRUST aspect. In the Virtual World of the internet, we don't really know each other that well, and so assembling such a group here would be impossible. However, people who MEET here to discuss these issues MIGHT invite others to more Private Groups and get to know each other better. If TSHingTF does not happen tommorow, you might actually have enough time to get to know enough people you trust to make such a plan. I know I have friends over the net I would trust, but they are people I have been talking with for YEARS, even though I never have met them IRL.
I am WAY too far out on the edge of civilization already to be part of such a plan. However, if I still lived in a city down in the lower 48, I would consider this to be one of the better plans for survival, with a lot of options and not a ridiculously huge investment either. It mainly hinges on getting enough friends to believe you and make similar preparations. If you can do this, if you can get together at least 10 or so friends to make such preparations, you are going to be a lot better off than waiting in your city condo for the Zombies to come out of the darkness.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 5283 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 5:47 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
RedStateGreen wrote:
In that case I'd go back to California, but I'm not sure that's the best choice right now.
What makes you feel you belong there? For instance, I spent 13 years in Southern California. I "grew accustomed" to it in kind of a stockholm syndrome way. I don't think I ever belonged there. I also don't think you have to move back to where you grew up. It's really a soul searching thing you have to do to determine the region that calls to you. _________________ http://doomsteaddiary.blogspot.com/
Joined: Sep 16, 2007 Posts: 1645 Location: Oklahoma City, USA
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 7:11 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
mos6507 wrote:
RedStateGreen wrote:
In that case I'd go back to California, but I'm not sure that's the best choice right now.
What makes you feel you belong there? For instance, I spent 13 years in Southern California. I "grew accustomed" to it in kind of a stockholm syndrome way. I don't think I ever belonged there. I also don't think you have to move back to where you grew up. It's really a soul searching thing you have to do to determine the region that calls to you.
Born, raised, and raised my children there. I know how to garden there, how to talk to people there, I have all my friends and family there (with a very few exceptions). I know how to live there. People care more about their neighbors than their property values.
Not much chance of going back with housing prices the way they are. Guess I'm just feeling homesick. _________________ Conservation is conservative
efarmer wrote:
"Taste the sizzling fury of fajita skillet death you marauding zombie goon!"
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:13 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
RedStateGreen wrote:
mos6507 wrote:
RedStateGreen wrote:
In that case I'd go back to California, but I'm not sure that's the best choice right now.
What makes you feel you belong there? For instance, I spent 13 years in Southern California. I "grew accustomed" to it in kind of a stockholm syndrome way. I don't think I ever belonged there. I also don't think you have to move back to where you grew up. It's really a soul searching thing you have to do to determine the region that calls to you.
Born, raised, and raised my children there. I know how to garden there, how to talk to people there, I have all my friends and family there (with a very few exceptions). I know how to live there. People care more about their neighbors than their property values.
Not much chance of going back with housing prices the way they are. Guess I'm just feeling homesick.
What part of CA are you referring to? I just read an article on the housing prices in CA. They mentioned one community near San Jose where housing is drastically reduced in price because of the mortgage/repro nonsense. Some new construction is just sitting there unfinished, while other 'hoods are not 'hoods at all, as all that is there is a road and empty lots. Older homes apparently were not selling there either.
I envy the gardeners who live in that state, esp. after having to deal with zone 5 and short, cold growing seasons...and long, near zero F winters!
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 613 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Mon Aug 25, 2008 9:55 pm Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
RedStateGreen wrote:
I was just on another forum where the question was posed re: what you would take if you were bugging out 'into the unknown'.
Why do people insist on this fantasy?
Just think about it: some disaster is happening, severe enough for you to be forced to leave your home (a fire, hurricane, flood, etc.). Thousands of other people are probably displaced also. You won't be able to camp out on public or private land, even if it's a decent spot (you know the owners will be looking for this sort of activity, shotguns ready). The hotels will either be full or uninhabitable. Shelters, rest stops and campsites will be crowded and dangerous.
Is there some reason you wouldn't want to go stay with family or friends? It seems as though people just think there will be some idyllic mountain area (that no one ELSE knows about) that they can just somehow find (because we're "bugging out into the UNKNOWN"), without being arrested for trespassing, coming across thugs/druggies who have staked out the area already, or falling prey to the elements.
I've had to evacuate before (wildfires) and it really makes it much easier if you have a place to go already. We packed important documents, a few changes of clothes, and the kids' toys and went to grandma's. :)
Now, if things were so bad that we didn't have that option (a tsunami or its badness equivalent) then it seems better to choose a place to go outside your geographic area IN ADVANCE rather than just "going somewhere".
Is this just a case of "trusting" that "something" will turn up? Some macho "live off the land" wish-fulfillment? Or what? I'm baffled.
You're looking at people whose picture of the pastoral life has come to them via television dramas involving pioneers. If TV show pioneers have problems, they are dramatic ones, like having to fight off Injuns or alien monsters, and of course the humans always win. In the TV series, there's always that perfect spot over there, with nobody owning it: it's just there. So the TV pioneers go over there, and usually it's just a few steps from where their spaceship landed, and set up camp, and begin organizing activities necessary to creating a more permanent camp, and you are never shown the nitty-gritty details (sawing wood, etc.) and the time factor is compressed by about the same factor that the number of Jewish victims of WW2 has been exaggerated (20).
This kind of people has overly romantic notions about hard work because they don't do any of it. They've never built a house, so they imagine that they could build one, figuring that they can rediscover all the accumulated wisdom that has gone into architecture over the past 4000 years through their own common sense. And they never really put that hypothesis to the test until they must, and when they must, they fail. If their lives had depended on being successful, they die. Many people are exactly that sort of fool.
Living through a disaster does require a continuously habitable place to do the living in. Finding one takes time, and it is necessary to beat the crowds to the market for suitable sites. Further, it takes a lot of practice to learn to do without fossil fuels and electricity. There are details to work out, such as water supply, food supply, transportation, security, and so on. The working out of those details will take months at least, and most likely it will take years of practice to become competent at pioneer living.
But, to answer your question again: most people are unrealistic, overly romantic, about survival. They think a disaster is an adventure, like being in a TV drama where everything is scripted to turn out fine. And in their minds, such people usually picture themselves and their behavior as being "movie star pretty." They'll as easily imagine themselves in Steve Zodiac's pilot seat in Fireball XL5. Fools.
MadScientist wrote:
just laugh and consider the positive implications for the human gene pool.
As a fan of eugenics, I applaud the wisdom of this remark, though it would be nice if we'd the time and resources needed to improve human intelligence through gentler methods than natural selection.
CarlosFerreira wrote:
Maybe people are just tired and want a simpler, less troublesome life. Life alone in the wild is cold, damp, dangerous, you get snakes inside your sleeping bags and your kids/parents/old folks get mauled and eaten by bears or something. You get ill pretty fast, you need caffeine or nicotine, there's nothing to eat and everyone perishes. Many centuries ago, before coal, oil, NG or whatever, people would already live together. Bug Out types are either suicidal or misinformed.
Mostly, they're misinformed. They have taken TV as reality about as much in practical matters as they have in political matters. And they don't like it when you contradict what TV has misinformed them about. (Who are you, anyway? All the experts are on TV. If you were an expert, you'd have been on TV.)
Nice description about life in the wilderness. Yes, critters will pester you. Raccoons or possums raid my trash can most nights. I've chased black bears out of my yard. I've shot wildcats in my goat pasture. Deer can be bothersome. Snakes aren't a big problem in my area, but in some places they're worse.
On the other hand, bugging out is certainly doable if you have the time to accumulate the resources and get through the learning curve. It's not something anyone can do from scratch in a few weeks. I've recently had long power outages, which let me test my theory that I don't really need electricity anymore. I probably don't need fossil fuels, either.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:07 am Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
[quote="Jenab6"]
RedStateGreen wrote:
I was just on another forum where the question was posed re: what you would take if you were bugging out 'into the unknown'.
Why do people insist on this fantasy?
Just think about it: some disaster is happening, severe enough for you to be forced to leave your home (a fire, hurricane, flood, etc.). Thousands of other people are probably displaced also. You won't be able to camp out on public or private land, even if it's a decent spot (you know the owners will be looking for this sort of activity, shotguns ready). The hotels will either be full or uninhabitable. Shelters, rest stops and campsites will be crowded and dangerous.
Maybe this is true down in the lower 48, it is NOT true up here.
You ever hear the line "You can't GET here from there"?
About the only way to get to Alaska over land is the Al-Can highway, over 2000 miles across the Yukon Territory. Even in the good times, all the gas stops are only open a portion of the year. When the SHTF, about NOBODY gets to Alaska.
You got any IDEA how BIG Denali National Park is? Its quite close to the size of Texas by itself. You got any idea how few people really live up here? Less than a neighborhood in Houston once you go an hour out of Anchorage.
It would be quite easy up here to go off into the wilderness and not see anybody for YEARS. People do it all the time up here.
It is NOT a fantasy. It is quite possible to go far enough out into the wilderness you won't be bothered by other people. The Yukon Territory is ENORMOUS, and virtually NOBODY lives there.
Could most people survive in the Yukon? No. Its not necessary though. You just need to be in a neighborhood where the population is small enough relative to the resources of the neighborhood. Such is the case in the Matanuska Valley.
So I refute your argument its a fantasy. It is NOT a fantasy. I most certainly could go so far out nobody would ever find me, but I won't do that because that is no way to live. My community can live though, because it is not overpopulated for what nature can provide. At least unless the oceans die and we on;t get a good salmon run next year.
Posted: Tue Aug 26, 2008 6:14 am Post subject: Re: The myth of "bugging out into the wild"
Looking at this from a different perspective. I am already as bugged out as I can get. I am the local that will be there when you make your escape. If I try to move further back I am really starting to come out the other side. Moving to a state or federal park land is a poor option. Very rough terrain covered with trees. Except for a few stocked fish very little food and not enough dirt to grow any. Also parks are the only location out of the city where a lot of potental escapees have actually been, so many will show up there. Probably get five familys per camp site and the potential for deadly conflicts is high. Staying on my own land where I know where everything is is a much better option.
I expect the first real sign of TSHTF will be the price of fuel getting so high along with high unemployment that the town votes to shut down town government to end local property taxes. They will close the school, pull the plug on the sewer plant and lay off the road crew. This will close all the side roads at the first snow. As I wont be able to waste fuel this may be an asset as looters wont be able to drive within five miles of my front door. If I lose the grid I'll lose whats in the freezer but everything else in the house works. When it gets dark I can light a candle or go to bed after filling the wood stoves. Might have to get with the neighbors and block the roads at the first bridge for security. I dont know is snowshoeing five miles to take a turn at guarding the gate would be worth it or even feasible. Perhaps a skull with a bullet hole in it with a no trespassing sign will work as well and leaving them quessing as to exactly where you are laying for them.
Then I quess its a matter of how complete the breakdown has been. Will there be any supplies available at the nearest rail line? Even if there is and you can travel there reasonably safe it is seven miles and a thousand foot climb back to this old house.
Too many posibilities to think them all through. Just have to deal with it when it gets here.
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Or throw in together with him as a more Diplomatic solution.
