Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4524 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Ludi wrote:
I challenge anyone to present one piece of practical skills information they learned from reading the Bible. The Egyptians had a written language, but no one knows how they built the pyramids, though many people guess about it.
Well, it's still apples and oranges. How much was written down and preserved from that era other than religious stuff? We're talking about hand-transcribed scrolls and books, pre-Gutenburg.
If it's one thing 6.7 billion people have done in this world, is generate a lot of information. Of course, most of it is frivolous, but of the practical variety, the enormity of it all is quite staggering, in all its forms, analog and digital. It will take a lot to completely erase that, and along the way, many opportunities to preserve it as in the days of old, should it be seen as anything other than a cheap source of firewood. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Joined: Apr 12, 2007 Posts: 1190 Location: Central NC
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:30 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Ludi wrote:
Traditional skills are lost over the span of one generation.
I make things for a living. It's easier to learn practical skills from someone who has them, than from a book. Earlier someone cited the Bible as information passed down for thousands of years. I challenge anyone to present one piece of practical skills information they learned from reading the Bible.
Totally agree with you Ludi. Book Larnin isn't the same thing.
Best I could come up with in terms of the bible is "ye shall reap what you sow".
Moses must have had pretty good skills to survive those 40 years in the wilderness though. _________________ "The era of procrastination, of half-measures, of soothing and baffling expedients, of delays, is coming to a close. In its place we are entering a period of consequences…"
Sir Winston Churchill
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 9:41 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Ludi wrote:
Traditional skills are lost over the span of one generation.
I make things for a living. It's easier to learn practical skills from someone who has them, than from a book. Earlier someone cited the Bible as information passed down for thousands of years. I challenge anyone to present one piece of practical skills information they learned from reading the Bible. The Egyptians had a written language, but no one knows how they built the pyramids, though many people guess about it.
Well certainly left for eons rusted iron would get dispersed. However, its doubtful this stuff gets left for eons, its going to be scavenged almost from the beginning. Even in the corrosive environment of salt water, sunken battleships from WWII still are pretty much intact although basically rusted through. In a less corrosive environment, steel lasts still longer. Steel building superstructures last quite a long time, look at the Flatiron building. Built in 1897 its still basically intact and functional. Clearly maintenance has been done to keep it so, but that is mostly on the brickwork not the steel superstructure. I'd bet on this still standing another 200 years before collapsing, and then there would still be a pile of worthwhile metal oxide there for a long time thereafter.
Far as the knowledge necessary to smelt and work metal being irretrievably lost, and the Japanese Sword Maker argument goes, yes its better to pass on knowledge directly from master to apprentice, but this is not to say you can't learn stuff from books either. Its been 10,000 years since Stone Tools were fashioned out Obsidian because they were necessary, however modern Stone Knappers figured out how it was done and make good stone tools today. With respect to smelting metal, certainly if the knowledge is completely lost, all the libraries are burned to the ground then it will be a while in coming before its reinvented. However, I see such a complete loss of knowledge as unlikely even in a mass die off scenario, because the people who survive are going to be the people who actually KNOW about this stuff right now. Definitely having somebody with Foundry experience and metal working knowledge is an important part of any Survival Community. This knowledge gives your community a tremendous survival advantage over any other community, both from the point of view of producing Tools for Farming and Hunting to producing Weapons with which to defend your community. My brother in law is a Tool and Die specialist who worked for 20 years in a small plant which had its own Foundry for casting molds for their parts. One of my fishing buddies has a full metal shop, and while working metal without the Acetylene would be quite a bit harder, its still not impossible to do. Furnace, Hammer and Anvil and a lot of Brute Strength do the trick pretty well, its called Blacksmithing. There are quite a few folks out there who have Blacksmithing as a hobby, and I'll bet these folks tend to be Survivalists also.
So sorry, I just don't think you lose metal work as a result of Peak Oil, not in the absence of a Societal Suicide with Thermonuclear Weapons. Its too valuable a skill and any community that does survive will have people in it who know how to do this, and they will pass it on to the children.
This is why I do not subscribe to the isolationist paradigm for survival that some others here do. My job as I see it is to identify what is necessary in the community to make it work whollistically, and to have sufficient knowledge myself to make many parts of such a community work. I am not as rich as some folks here, I don't own a huge tract of land, I rent a small cabin. I have something more important than MONEY though, I have what I hold in my head, and trust me its quite a bit. I know more things about more subjects than about anyone I ever met. I don't know some things as in depth as others and I always try to listen and learn from those who know more than me on specific subjects. On a general level though of knoweldge, I am a walking Encyclopedia. That is why I teach for a living in this economy, and its what I will do when this economy crashes. Without someone to pass on the knowledge to the children, the society is lost. If its in my power to do so, I will NOT let that happen for as long as I walk the earth. What happens afterward I cannot control, but at least until the day I die on the Battlefield or I am marched into a Gas Chamber or I walk out into the Wilderness to give myself up to the Bear, I will continue to do what I do, which is to Teach. Its what I am doing here of course.
Joined: Jan 01, 2007 Posts: 242 Location: Pacific Northwest
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:49 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Ludi Wrote:
"I challenge anyone to present one piece of practical skills information they learned from reading the Bible. The Egyptians had a written language, but no one knows how they built the pyramids, though many people guess about it."
Well I learned ten rules that have served me well so far.
Posted: Mon Aug 11, 2008 10:55 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
coyote wrote:
Quote:
Wasn't that guy also on the Penn&Teller episode about the end of the world?
I just watched it, based on your tip.
If I had any lingering doubts before, they're cleared up now. Penn & Teller are dickheads. And wrong. And guilty of all the cynical profiteering they falsely accused Tom of. Whatever you think is going to happen, going through a Tom Brown class is one of the most amazing experiences you can treat yourself to. It's not only practical, but truly spiritual as well.
If either of those morons are ever caught out in the wild, I hope they remember that shelter. It's a good one if you've got only a couple of hours till nightfall or bad weather.
It's too bad Tom agreed to the interview. He's quite possibly the finest tracker and outdoorsman in the world. He deserves a hell of a lot more respect than that.
No doubt he is good at what he does, but what's the story about a business that caters to people who are terrified the world is going to end soon?
Quote:
Yeah, I never had a whole lot of respect for those guys. I picked about a million holes in their pro-GM-crops episode (lost when my forum crashed).
Perhaps you could re-write it. I look forward to reading it.
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 12:28 am Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Ludi wrote:
Yep. It's just you were kind of pooping on traditional skills a little bit ago, so I leapt to the conclusion that by "new skills" you meant new to the world, not just new to you.
Traditional skills are great. They're just not enough. Defending your village with bows & arrows was not good 300-400 years ago & it sure as crap won't do the trick now.
But learning how to dig a well & milk a goat, well, those are valuable in any age.
Joined: May 13, 2007 Posts: 646 Location: Athabasca, Alberta
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:27 am Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Let's do a simple experiment, get a magnet and cover it with plastic wrap. Then go to any sand source you can find, local river, beach, lake, any source of sand. Run the magnet through the sand and you will notice black sand clinging to the magnet. This is magnetite and is a source of iron; Japanese swords are smelted from this stuff using charcoal.
Now I am not suggesting we all make swords, but we can make tools using this iron which due to their silicone content will resist rust. Wrought iron over 1000 years old can be regenerated and last another 1000 years. _________________ Appuis ait fabrum esse suae quemque fortunae.
Alias Redneck
Last edited by Blacksmith on Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:58 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:40 am Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Narz wrote:
Traditional skills are great. They're just not enough. Defending your village with bows & arrows was not good 300-400 years ago & it sure as crap won't do the trick now.
But learning how to dig a well & milk a goat, well, those are valuable in any age
Bow and Arrow wasn't good enough 500 years ago, because the technology was made obsolete by Gunpowder and Metallurgy.
One would suspect here that although neither gunpowder nor metallurgy disappear completely, at least for a period of time there will be a shortage of guns and ammo in most places. Bow and Arrow in such a situation definitely is useful. You can reuse your arrows, so why waste what ammo you have when a Bow and Arrow will suffice, either for hunting or for protecting your property and your children? As long as your enemy does not have a gun, your Bow & Arrow is a very good tool for killing at a distance. If your enemy does have a gun, hopefully you have shepherded well your gun and your supply of ammo, because its probably time to use it.
How will you protect your Goats from the Big Cats? Once there are fewer humans out there, these Predators will return in force. I would hope you have a Bow and Arrow and are a pretty good Archer, because I sure would not want to get any closer than 30 yards to one of those animals without having a darn good way to drop it. Maybe you have stored enough ammo for your lifetime, but what of your children? I hope you teach them how to use a Bow and Arrow, because there may not be enough ammo left for them to defend their Goats.
Before the Gun, the Bow and Arrow was a fine technology and part of all battles predating even the Roman Empire. In the aftermath of Peak Oil, this technology once again becomes a very useful one to know, and like others of this type has been improved on. A modern Compound bow has far more power and range than the Longbow, and its smaller and quicker to use. Long as you know the design, you can make such a bow from wood, though long as you have some basic metalworking ability you can make a better one. Or you can take real good care of the Bow you bought at Sportsman's Warehouse and pass it down to your son when its time for you to go.
I would not pass on owning a good Bow and Arrow in these times, and knowing how to use it. They are very good weapons.
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:16 am Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
We are not going to run out of gun powder. I made it when I was 12 years old. The common ingredients of charcoal, sulfur and salt peter are too easy to come by.
A good substitute is made from sugar, salt peter and iron oxide. Unless you wipe out sugar cane and out houses, people will be turning out gun powder.
I have been turning out my own ammunition for thirty years. Black powder will function quite well in most modern fire arms. Bullets are made from wheel weights; it is just too easy. Bottom line ammunition is here to stay.
Joined: Oct 15, 2005 Posts: 182 Location: Trollhättan, Sweden
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:04 am Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
I get the feeling that a lot of doomers think everything is going to run out everywere, no matter what. And nobody can do anything about anything anywere.
I guess a doomer in the stone-age thougth alot about what to do when all the stones were used up, but not so mutch what will happen when the mammuts are all gone :D
Joined: May 13, 2005 Posts: 3056 Location: The Urban Village
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 1:31 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
Narz wrote:
I do know how to make saurkraut & kim-chi already.
Viva le cabbage! I've been reading on Saurkraut and its both a bit harder to make than i thought and healthier. Kimchi is awesome. And, they are made without fire in earthenware pots - perfect for the coming stone age!
Joined: Nov 25, 2006 Posts: 1541 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:21 pm Post subject: Re: Why Stone Age?
ReverseEngineer wrote:
Bow and Arrow wasn't good enough 500 years ago, because the technology was made obsolete by Gunpowder and Metallurgy.
One would suspect here that although neither gunpowder nor metallurgy disappear completely, at least for a period of time there will be a shortage of guns and ammo in most places. Bow and Arrow in such a situation definitely is useful. You can reuse your arrows, so why waste what ammo you have when a Bow and Arrow will suffice, either for hunting or for protecting your property and your children? As long as your enemy does not have a gun, your Bow & Arrow is a very good tool for killing at a distance. If your enemy does have a gun, hopefully you have shepherded well your gun and your supply of ammo, because its probably time to use it.
How will you protect your Goats from the Big Cats? Once there are fewer humans out there, these Predators will return in force. I would hope you have a Bow and Arrow and are a pretty good Archer, because I sure would not want to get any closer than 30 yards to one of those animals without having a darn good way to drop it. Maybe you have stored enough ammo for your lifetime, but what of your children? I hope you teach them how to use a Bow and Arrow, because there may not be enough ammo left for them to defend their Goats.
Before the Gun, the Bow and Arrow was a fine technology and part of all battles predating even the Roman Empire. In the aftermath of Peak Oil, this technology once again becomes a very useful one to know, and like others of this type has been improved on. A modern Compound bow has far more power and range than the Longbow, and its smaller and quicker to use. Long as you know the design, you can make such a bow from wood, though long as you have some basic metalworking ability you can make a better one. Or you can take real good care of the Bow you bought at Sportsman's Warehouse and pass it down to your son when its time for you to go.
I would not pass on owning a good Bow and Arrow in these times, and knowing how to use it. They are very good weapons.
Reverse Engineer
I don't expect the powers that be (and that could Fark with me) to run out of guns & ammo within my lifetime.
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Glad to know it's catching on.
