I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:24 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
mercurygirl wrote:
Then how do we "succeed" in reducing the population drastically?
Stop trying to save everyone and let the death rate increase, while we control births.
A stable populaition is one where the birth rate and the death conicide. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
darwinsdog wrote:
Without fossil fuel inputs it's impossible to grow sufficient food to sustain more than about .2 - .5 billion people. Soon there won't be sufficient fossil fuel at a reasonable price for supporting mechanized agriculture. There is no opportunity for "saving lives" in this scenario. It isn't about "having a conscience;" it's a matter of simple stochiometrics & biology. The reduction of human population to within the bounds of K is inevitable. As populations crash, they tend to bounce around for several generations & it's entirely likely for them to bounce all the way down to the absorbing boundary of zero. In fact, when a population bounces down to a certain density Allee effects tend to drag them down even further, making extinction a distinct possibility. Human extinction within the lifetimes of those already born is not out of the question. These are the facts & it doesn't matter one iota how anyone feels about them.
I agree. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13065 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:28 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
ANewHuman wrote:
What percentage of the population would you attribute to the "weak and infirm"? People that would die without others help would only be about ~10% of the population if you count oldies in western countries who need meds to actually SURVIVE.
Much higher percentage in developed countries. 8% of the US population have diabetes, and many/most depend on medication for continued survival. That's just diabetes. Add in all the other illnesses people treat with medication to prolong their lives, you may have 25% or more of the population. 50% of the US population takes some kind of prescription medication, usually to prolong life. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:32 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
mercurygirl wrote:
Our predators return is what will happen, courtesy of Nature, as resources deplete. But you and others seem to advocate something unnatural, in order to mitigate the damages caused by Nature.
No, just that we choose from the right-hand list first before nature does.
Remember: By definition, overshoot is a condition in which the delayed signals from the environment are not yet strong enough to force an end to growth.
Nature hasn't quite received the signals. We, on the other hand, have.
Removing our predators in the first place was unnatural. Now, putting them back is unnatural? As long as you take those that nature would have, then you are doing the best you can to emulate nature, are you not? _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:33 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
Ludi wrote:
ANewHuman wrote:
What percentage of the population would you attribute to the "weak and infirm"? People that would die without others help would only be about ~10% of the population if you count oldies in western countries who need meds to actually SURVIVE.
Much higher percentage in developed countries. 8% of the US population have diabetes, and many/most depend on medication for continued survival. That's just diabetes. Add in all the other illnesses people treat with medication to prolong their lives, you may have 25% or more of the population. 50% of the US population takes some kind of prescription medication, usually to prolong life.
That's not 8% insulin DEPENDENT diabetes though, I am sure? Most diabetes sufferers are just fat and get it through diet, it can be controlled. Few people require daily medication to survive, even in the USA. Yes a lot will have less quality in their life but they will still survive for quite a long time.
Plus montequests "stop prolonging the weak" will actually torture quite a few people who lose loved ones due to his policy. The worst thing you can do with any depopulation policy is let people know they are being culled. So I do not think his methods will ever work over the long term. It would destroy society from within if you let people know you're going to kill 10% of them, those 10% have friends and family measure 20-30%.
Would you rather die from lack of insulin if you were a sufferer in montequests plan or die in your sleep from my plan? I know which way I would go. _________________ Introducing the human evolution.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 13065 Location: naive idiot fantasy world
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:35 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
ANewHuman wrote:
Would you rather die from lack of insulin if you were a sufferer in montequests plan or die in your sleep from my plan? I know which way I would go.
I would rather die from natural causes than be killed by another human being.
In fact, I hope and plan to die of natural causes (probably stroke and/or pneumonia). I just haven't "cut the rope" yet, as I'm a baby chicken guts. _________________ "...powerdown so soft and fluffy you'll think you're living in a pillow." - jboogy
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:36 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
Ludi wrote:
He's talking about killing people with a special virus in the drinking water.
That's clearly an option that would work, but not the least coercive measure available or one I would want to support. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:40 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
Ludi wrote:
Disease organisms are the natural predators of humans. You've stated this. But you've also stated that Nature is much more ruthless killing with disease. When you talk about "letting our predators return," it's confusing to me to try to determine if you mean we should stop applying germ theory, sanitation, and vaccinations, or if you, like ANewHuman, are advocating producing special diseases.
Stop doing the things that lowered the death rate.
By definition, overshoot is a condition in which the delayed signals from the environment are not yet strong enough to force an end to growth.
We must beat Nature to the punch before overshoot worsens. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4391 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:41 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
Ludi wrote:
He's talking about killing people with a special virus in the drinking water.
Hah. Just like Ra's al Ghul trying to poison Gotham City in Batman Begins? This is the megalomaniacs thread. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
Diabetics, dialysis patients, alcoholics, people with chronic health problems like Crohn's or Addisons disease, antibiotics, things like that. Follow that up with ending food aid to third world nations.
It's a start.
China's apparently colonizing Africa right now. Africa's the last big huge untapped source of natural resources at the moment. The ME is pretty much over, I bet the next fight will be over Africa.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4391 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:50 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
MonteQuest wrote:
The death rate must increase. I can envision all kinds of ways this can happen without killing people off.
Stop doing what we did to decrease it.
People will not voluntarily handicap the application of medicine in a way that will raise everyone's odds of dying (like stopping polio and smallpox immunization). So if you want to just target the infirm, I don't think you'll get the dead count you're after. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
ANewHuman wrote:
What percentage of the population would you attribute to the "weak and infirm"?
Hard to say. Add up all the people who would not survive save for modern medicine and I think it would be quite a number.
No one has done a study of what actually would be required to make a significant dent in reducing the population.
We need to increase the death rate by about 215,000 people per day. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Aug 03, 2007 Posts: 4391 Location: Boston Suburbs
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:55 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
MonteQuest wrote:
A die-off by nature might lower the carrying capacity to 1 billion or less; leaving a population struggling in misery, possibly facing outright extinction.
Humanity already went through a bottleneck where there was literally only a handful of us left. So I think the odds of us going extinct are low. That would only happen if we cook the planet and do the hydrogen sulfide deal.
However, whatever humans survive in a worst case environmental dystopia would have to live through what would feel like an endless purgatory for our sins. _________________ As long as I am around, there are no worries we have reached "Peak Words"
Posted: Sat Jul 19, 2008 11:57 am Post subject: Re: The issue of depopulation and Hitlerism
ANewHuman wrote:
If you SLOWLY increase the death rate by holding back meds, charity, etc, in any country, the birth rate will slowly increase to match it. It happens time and time again.
Which is why you have to address birth control as well. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
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