Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 11:04 am Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
Dezakin wrote:
WildRose wrote:
Unfortunately, I get the impression that it's anti-Albertan to knock the oil sands industry. You wouldn't believe the things I've heard at some barbecues, etc. I keep looking for ways to open people's eyes to the realities of the environmental impacts. You are correct, I think, that the only thing that will slow this down is some nasty demand destruction.
Why should we care about frozen hellholes in the middle of nowhere?
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 6:10 pm Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
WildRose wrote:
Dezakin wrote:
WildRose wrote:
Unfortunately, I get the impression that it's anti-Albertan to knock the oil sands industry. You wouldn't believe the things I've heard at some barbecues, etc. I keep looking for ways to open people's eyes to the realities of the environmental impacts. You are correct, I think, that the only thing that will slow this down is some nasty demand destruction.
Why should we care about frozen hellholes in the middle of nowhere?
Posted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
Blacksmith wrote:
Ask yourselves why anyone needs the United States? The only reason I can come up with is that they are a very large number of over consumers, who are willing to assume massive amounts of extenalized debt.
So turn off your air conditioners, stop driving your SUV's and boycott Walmart and see who cares.
Easy there. I'm on your side of the sands debate but no need to go jingoistic. Canadians need the U.S. for cheap whisky and just about anything else they can load in their vehicles. I live 75 miles from the border or about two hours south of Winnipeg and my town gets flooded with shoppers every weekend or Canadian holliday. A few come down to get quick access to medical care. Apparently Alberta needs United States meteorologists for road maintenance purposes. I know as I am the one putting out the damn forecasts from North Dakota. If anyone wants to see some environmental scars go take a look at the Hibbing, MN iron ore operation. Some 1.5 trillion tons of material have been removed and the ironic part is the place looks awesome; like a mini Grand Canyon in the woods but each individual perspective will be different. Oils sands environmental footprint is a candle in the wind to all agricultural impacts on the environment. Since we all have to eat there is minimal complaint about wetland destruction, soil erosion, pesticide/hericide/fertilizer contamination and runoff, habitat loss, deforestation, natural praire loss... this list could go on and on.
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:11 am Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
http://www.jirirezac.com/stories/oilsands/
It looks beautiful. They're doing a good job. I'm so proud to be an American. BTW, I'm invested in a number of companies who work in the oil sands project. I'm doing my duty in helping provide funds to improve the life of my fellow man.
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:16 am Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
vetusfirma wrote:
Now that the Soviet Union is dead, I think Brazil is probably the world leader in destroying their own country. But its so popular to bash America it's understandably that you missed that.
The reason people bash America is to divert attention from their own sins.
Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:26 am Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
Kveldulf wrote:
I'm in Alberta, though just barely, and it is indeed very bad to oppose industry of any kind.
People are told that they may be "let go" if the government does 'x', 'y', or 'z'.
If you so much as suggest slowing down a bit, you're now officially a crazy tree hugging hippie, who wants people to lose their jobs.
It's all jobs and money. If either of those factors are involved, they don't need explanation... they are considered absolute justification for anything industry desires.
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 5:17 pm Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
GregWatson wrote:
Vogelzang wrote:
I want my gasoline.
At what price does the spoiled child demand petrol?
There are "No Free Lunches". Pollute and you pay.
Greg
All I can say is I'm glad I can walk across the border if need be... I just hate to leave what is currently a nice place behind. Not to mention where I was born and raised and all that sentimental stuff.
Some people fail to see that disrespecting your environment is disrespecting yourself. YOU have to live in it. YOU depend on it. It isn't some abstract thing floating around in political debates. It's your air, water, food, and land.
The natural environment will recover/adapt in time...no worries there. Will it be a place humans can/want to live? That's the real question.
Joined: Oct 27, 2006 Posts: 770 Location: Soviet Canada
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:18 pm Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
Homesteader wrote:
gampy wrote:
I hope the good people of North America (or at least this website) understand what our current lifestyles truly cost.
Oh....the awful oil companies.
Don't blame them. Blame yourselves. Blame all of us.
Alberta will resemble Mordor in another 10 years as production and investment ramps up.
Park your cars, don't buy plastic, or nylon clothing. The only way to get people to stop using that awful stuff under the boreal forest is to curb demand.
Anyways, I am sad, and resigned to the fact that Alberta (and the watersheds down river of the area) are going to be sacrificed for a steady supply of motor fuel for North America.
But I am kind of angry that Alberta's government (and hence, her peoples) don't give a crap.
Oh well. Not my neck of the woods. Hopefully, when the whole thing is over, they don't mind trying to eke out a living in a ecological wasteland. Good luck with that.
It's a crime what the Albertan government has allowed to happen. All for a few bucks. I know thjere are a few Albertans who visit this website, and some of them don't give a rat's ass about what's going on, but I would hope that public opinion would start to pressure the government to regulate the industry up there a little better.
Rant over. Enjoy your daily commutes, and 3000 mile tomatoes.
I agree with the tenor of your post. However, if the tar sands where located elsewhere the outcome would be the same.
Yeah, this is true. Mostly.
Some jurisdictions have historically been better stewards of their environment than others, but resources and money usually trump long term self interest.
It makes me sad, and ashamed of my country and countrymen to see such wasteful behavior. Not just Alberta, but Ontario (omfg...ever been to Sudbury, Ontario in the '70's and 80's?)
British Columbia (have a look at the interior of Vancouver Island on Google Maps satellite...vaste areas clearcut...looks like a patchwork quilt from 5 mileup)
Some of the finest arable land on earth paved over to make subdivisions for the GTA.
I guess you have to be stoic, and a little cynical otherwise you might as well just move to a cave in the forest, and eat earthworms and carrion.
Joined: Jun 02, 2008 Posts: 378 Location: Midwest City, Oklahoma
Posted: Mon Jul 07, 2008 9:37 pm Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
Well, I started this thread.
My wife just saw the photos I posted to start it all.
She was like, EEEEWWWW! I cannot believe they are doing that to their land to get some oil.
There ya go! One who does not like me talking about this stuff just gave her opinion!
Maybe I just made a believer out of a non-believer? _________________ "Better give me a lotta lumps, a whole lotta lumps!" Pete Puma, circa 1952
Posted: Tue Jul 08, 2008 1:23 pm Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
Serial_Worrier wrote:
WildRose wrote:
Dezakin wrote:
WildRose wrote:
Unfortunately, I get the impression that it's anti-Albertan to knock the oil sands industry. You wouldn't believe the things I've heard at some barbecues, etc. I keep looking for ways to open people's eyes to the realities of the environmental impacts. You are correct, I think, that the only thing that will slow this down is some nasty demand destruction.
Why should we care about frozen hellholes in the middle of nowhere?
The damage and effects of tar sands production are many and far-reaching.
First of all, there is the destruction of about one-fifth of Alberta's land mass, including boreal forest (which is an excellent carbon sink) and wetlands. This will take hundreds of years to be restored, if ever. There is the pollution of air and rivers, which is affecting people and wildlife along the Athabasca River downstream from Fort McMurray, causing rare cancers in people and fish. The toxic tailings ponds kill higher numbers of ducks and other water fowl than we are aware of and are, in places, very close to the Athabasca River and separated by a barrier which could be breached someday, spilling huge amounts of toxins into the river.
Further south, near Edmonton, an area 530 square miles is allotted for an industrial complex dubbed "Upgrader Alley" (see the report I linked to in my previous post). It looks like nine upgraders will be operating just northeast of Edmonton between 2015 and 2020. What we can expect from this, environmentally, unless significant measures are taken to slow down this development and do so in a responsible manner, is the following:
- huge amounts of water extracted from the North Saskatchewan River, up to 10 times as much as the city of Edmonton currently uses. This, from a river which is wide and very shallow in most places, and the risk of endangering the water ecosystems is high if water levels get too low.
- natural gas - twice as much as is needed to heat all of the homes in Edmonton will be needed for upgrader operations
- much greater electrical demand on a grid that is already stressed. In fact, the electrical need for this complex will be equal to the amount of electricity that powers all the homes in Alberta.
- increased emissions of sulphur dioxide and nitrogen oxides (by about 30 to 40%), causing smog and increased incidence of respiratory symptoms and disease.
- carcinogenic VOC's (volatile organic compounds), such as benzene, which is known to be toxic to humans.
- huge impact to agricultural land, very fine quality agricultural land, which might be better used for growing vegetables in the future?
- huge impacts to wetlands, groundwater, soils, habitats and landscapes in general in the area northeast of Edmonton and Edmonton city, as there are increases in road construction and rail to accommodate the industrial complex.
- socioeconomically, a lot of the problems encountered in Fort McMurray, caused by rapid and uncontrolled growth of the industry, will be repeated in Edmonton (high prices for rents, services, inadequate housing, etc.)
In total, about one-quarter of Alberta's land mass will be consumed by tar sands development by the time all of this is added to the extensive destruction in northern Alberta.
We can expect greenhouse gas emissions of 45 megatonnes per year from this expansion. Emissions from Fort McMurray are already the biggest source of greenhouse gas pollution in Canada. These emissions ultimately contribute to global climate change.
So, that's what is meant by "we're all downstream".
The future for Alberta, in my opinion, is not a pretty picture.
Posted: Fri Jul 11, 2008 3:07 am Post subject: Re: What a disaster the tar-sands are!
gampy wrote:
British Columbia (have a look at the interior of Vancouver Island on Google Maps satellite...vaste areas clearcut...looks like a patchwork quilt from 5 mileup)
That destroys area for lichen to grow and allows wolves easy access to the deep forest, pushing caribou towards extinction. The "jobs and money" cop-out is covering their asses yet again, even though selective cutting means a lot more jobs.
On the youtube video asking for support on this matter, some loggers were actually threatening to kill Caribou if people kept protesting.
All times are GMT - 6 Hours Goto page Previous1, 2, 3, 4Next
Page 3 of 4
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
