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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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 Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 8:52 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| Beagle wrote: | | Wind is out there to use for free. |
Free?
When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power?
There is no such thing as a free lunch or free energy.
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Revi
Fusion
Joined: Apr 25, 2005
Posts: 3454
Location: Maine
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:10 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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A guy in Maine tried to get commercial sail going again in the 80's, but cheap oil did him in. I have thought that now may be the time to get a pinky schooner and use it as a kind of a floating pickup truck in the near future. You can go up into a cove, let the tide go out and unload it anywhere.
It may be the vehicle of the future.
http://www.schoonersummertime.com/smrship.html
Unfortunately most of the boats out there would be almost worthless as useful vessels if we really needed them.
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Beagle
Tar Sands
Joined: Jul 17, 2004
Posts: 22
Location: Ontario, Canada
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| Posted: Sat Jun 28, 2008 9:51 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| Quote: | | When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power? |
I don't understand your point Montequest. When you put up a sail and use its energy you redirect it and in the process it slows somewhat. This is nothing more than things like trees or mountains do. You are correct - it is not free to use the energy. It takes work and resources to harness; One has to make the sails etc. However, the wind itself is there, i.e. it doesn't cost anything to produce. Notice "free energy" is in quotes.
| Quote: | | It is the uneven heating of the earth's surface that causes the wind to blow. |
So true. Silly me, it seems I forgot to mention that...but it seems like your implying that the rotation of the earth has little to do with it, in which case you'd be wrong. |
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Judgie
Heavy Crude
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Joined: May 07, 2007
Posts: 434
Location: Adelaide, South Australia
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 7:46 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| Beagle wrote: | Wind is out there to use for free. The sun and the earths rotation are the energy sources. The sail is the in effect a "free energy" device. We've had sails for thousands of years but the technology only truly came into its own in the late 19th and 20th centuries just before we abandoned it for cheap oil. The fore and aft schooner rig that developed during that time is incredibly efficient at harnessing the wind energy and for the world tradewind routes the square rigged vessels of the time represented an awesome level of technological sophistication.
You could put a wind generator on a ship like you've been discussing but why bother. You lose efficiency (energy) every time you convert energy from one type to another. Why bother with wind to mechanical, mechanical to electrical, electrical to mechanical and finally mechanical to motive when wind to motive works fine and is the most efficient.
If the world wants to save lots of fuel just mandate that all ships be required to lower their cruising speeds by a couple knots. Fuel consumption for any given ship follows an exponential curve against speed. After reaching about 80% of full speed half as much fuel is burned again by pushing a ship the last few knots faster through the water. Multiply those fuel savings by the 100 000 + ships out there and it adds up pretty fast. The world has been wasting an aweful lot of oil shipping plastic crap ridiculously fast across oceans for which there is really no need.
Personally, I can't wait till the return of commercial sail. I'm sick of big, noisy and smelly diesel engines. They are a pain in the ass to maintain too. |
Agreed 
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mos6507
Fusion
Joined: Aug 03, 2007
Posts: 4388
Location: Boston Suburbs
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| Posted: Sun Jun 29, 2008 10:38 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| MonteQuest wrote: | | Beagle wrote: | | Wind is out there to use for free. |
Free?
When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power?
There is no such thing as a free lunch or free energy. |
Do you have any studies that quantify the negative impact of massive wind use? It seems like it would be hugging so close to the surface that it would only be a small percent of total wind.
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Vegas
Tar Sands
Joined: Mar 29, 2008
Posts: 70
Location: Ashland,OR
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:01 am Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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Damnit, you greedy sailors stopped the wind!
Now what do we do?
Trying to move a modern cargo ship with wind is like a sparrow farting in a hurricane.
100,000 tons*2000=2,000,000,000 lbs. yikes!
Like in waterworld when they are rowing the valdez.
I am pretty sure they measure fuel consumption in gallons per foot. 
If we bring back sail, we can bring back pirates!  |
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dunewalker
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Jun 30, 2005
Posts: 744
Location: northern California
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 9:29 am Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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Why limit wind-powered transportation to ships?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Land_sailing
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Aaron
800 lb Gorilla
Joined: Apr 15, 2004
Posts: 6475
Location: Houston
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 10:51 am Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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Yeah... & we can get like teams of guys with these things to pull giant ocean-sleds across the seas!
Sweet...
Your dog wants a degree in physics.
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Polemic
Heavy Crude
Joined: Sep 24, 2006
Posts: 377
Location: Austin, TX
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| Posted: Mon Jun 30, 2008 1:10 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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Speaking of boats...
This weekend I was doing a bit of research on building something like this:
Solar-Powered Pontoon Boat
This particular one would need 2 or 3 times the number of panels to be self-sufficient.
But I want it to be amphibious, somewhat like this below:
Of course, this will probably be like most things in my life -- a lot of thinking and not much doing. |
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anagami
Light Sweet Crude
Joined: Jul 26, 2006
Posts: 1761
Location: Sudavasa Abodes
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| Posted: Tue Jul 01, 2008 7:06 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| dontworryaboutpeakoil wrote: | Sails will only work if the wind is blowing in the correct direction.
With a Wind Turbine, you can rotate the Wind Blade to the direction of the Wind so as long as there is a breeze, no matter what direction, it would work.
Say you have two 1 Million watt turbines. Isn't that enough to power the Engine and the power needs of the ship? |
And why convert mechanical energy to electricity and then to mechanical power? Isn't that inefficient?
Maybe with some mechanical transfer device, the wind can power medium-sized water turbines/rotors (don't know the exact name).
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lorenzo
Fission
Joined: Jan 01, 2005
Posts: 2228
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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Guys, get real please. It's called Skysails.
The technology works, as was recently demonstrated by a trip from Germany to Venezuela and back. It cuts fuel consumption by 30 to 50%.
Forget solar panels or wind turbines on ships.
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Aedo
Heavy Crude
Joined: Jun 23, 2005
Posts: 173
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| Posted: Thu Jul 03, 2008 9:14 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| Hagakure_Leofman wrote: | I can't see how this would work. Wouldn't this be some kind of "perpetual motion" vehicle? I.e. the drag created by the windmill would be greater than the energy generated so you'd have a net loss of energy a la the the second law of thermodynamics.
I recall someone asked something similar on the radio about cars that generate electricity while breaking, and so the question was,
| Quote: | | "if these cars generate electricity while breaking that charges the battery that runs the car, why can't we drive around with the brakes lightly depressed, thus generating enough electricity not to have to charge the car?" |
Even if you were moving into the wind (thus presumably generating the most electricity), the resulting drag would exceed the power yielded? Sails work because they harness the wind and convert it to motion directly. Generating electricity from wind and driving a propeller from the stored electricity would surely result is a loss of energy.
Or am I missing something? |
You're not missing a thing - you've summarised it nicely |
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muon
Tar Sands
Joined: Sep 11, 2007
Posts: 31
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 5:17 am Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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| MonteQuest wrote: | | Beagle wrote: | | Wind is out there to use for free. |
Free?
When you take the energy out of the wind, what now does without that energy? What processes does the wind power?
There is no such thing as a free lunch or free energy. |
Do you have any links that discuss this? |
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frankthetank
Fusion
Joined: Sep 16, 2004
Posts: 4857
Location: Southwest WI
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| Posted: Sat Jul 05, 2008 11:26 pm Post subject: Re: Why can't they put WindMills on a Ship? |
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Something different... just in the news today.
| Quote: | Japanese sailor and environmentalist Kenichi Horie has completed a 110-day solo voyage across the Pacific Ocean in a boat propelled by wave power to claim another world first.
Weak waves and opposing ocean currents delayed his arrival, which was originally set for late May.
"When waves were weak, the boat slowed down. That's the problem to be solved," the adventurer told reporters Saturday from aboard his catamaran Suntory Mermaid II off the Kii Peninsula in western Japan.
The 9.5 metre (31-foot) boat is equipped with two special fins at the front which can move like a dolphin's tail each time the vessel rises or falls with the rhythm of the waves.
Horie, who will turn 70 in September, reached his destination in the channel between the main Japanese islands of Honshu and Shikoku just before midnight (1500 GMT Friday) after covering some 7,000 kilometres (3,780 nautical miles) from Hawaii without a port call.
"The feeling is yet to sink in," Horie added, according to the Jiji and Kyodo news agencies. "I want to go home as soon as possible and eat home-cooked meals."
Horie first made world headlines in 1962 when, at the age of 23, he became the first person to sail solo across the Pacific.
He embarked on the three-month voyage from his hometown of Nishinomiya near Kobe despite breaking Japanese law, which did not allow its citizens to sail on their own out of the country, and without a passport or money.
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| Quote: | | "Throughout history, mankind has used wind for power, but no one has appeared to be serious about wave power," Horie told AFP last December. "I think I'm a lucky boy as this wave power system has remained virtually untouched." ;\ |
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