I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2880 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 2:41 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
So what?
The American people has been looted by the superrich for the last 30 years. That's the big financing issue, not expensive oil. Just take the money back from the top 0,1 % and you can finance any number of anythings. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 3:13 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
Starvid wrote:
So what?
The American people has been looted by the superrich for the last 30 years. That's the big financing issue, not expensive oil. Just take the money back from the top 0,1 % and you can finance any number of anythings.
No country on this planet ever grew rich by declaring war against rich people.
Even in "socialistic" Sweden there are billionaires.
//
I have this theory it is exactly because of government regulation that has made it possible for wealth to be concentrated into so few hands. How is this possible? Isn't government regulation normally used for distributing and not concentrating wealth?
ahhh
That's the dirty secret.
Posted: Sun Jun 08, 2008 6:05 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
I think that there will be fewer really well paved roads. There already are. They are neglecting the back roads, whaich means that they will have to be rebuilt, which won't happen. About 10 years of neglect and those roads will be basically dirt, anyway. Downtowns and the main roads will be maintained, but the vast majority of asphalt roads will fall into disrepair.
You won't need a smooth road to drive an oxcart anyway. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 2:48 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
Starvid wrote:
So what?
The American people has been looted by the superrich for the last 30 years. That's the big financing issue, not expensive oil. Just take the money back from the top 0,1 % and you can finance any number of anythings.
The lowest 25-percentile pay almost no taxes net of payments they receive from the government. The bottom 50-percentile hardly pay any taxes net other than sales taxes. The next 25-percentile certainly pays its fair share of all taxes. But it is the top 25-percentile that pay the most taxes, while receiving the smallest benefit in terms of services or payments from the government in return.
The latest data I saw (from the UK) was that the top one percent pay 22-percent of all taxes. You can fleece the top 0.1% once, but it will not make the kind of differences you claim. But good luck trying to tax them a second time. They will be gone and so will their capital. Never mind that it is their savings that finance government borrowing in the first place.
The reality is not only are the great masses unwashed, but they are ungrateful too! ; - )) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
MrBill wrote:
...
The lowest 25-percentile pay almost no taxes net of payments they receive from the government. The bottom 50-percentile hardly pay any taxes net other than sales taxes. The next 25-percentile certainly pays its fair share of all taxes. But it is the top 25-percentile that pay the most taxes, while receiving the smallest benefit in terms of services or payments from the government in return.
...
Unfortunately MrBill there's over 1 million webpages on the internet containing info that will happily try to convince people otherwise. Repetition does NOT make truth but it does make for public opinion!
Posted: Mon Jun 09, 2008 6:38 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
cube wrote:
Unfortunately MrBill there's over 1 million webpages on the internet containing info that will happily try to convince people otherwise. Repetition does NOT make truth but it does make for public opinion!
I went to a Simply Red concert in Pafos this weekend, so we stayed overnight on Saturday at one of the beach resorts quite close by. It is one of those all-inclusive holiday hotels where the packaged tours go. I honestly think I am allergic to the masses? I lose my appetite just watching them eat breakfast! Unfortunately, Cyprus does not attract the rich and the beautiful. Well, especially now that we do not have any water to wash with! ; - )) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2880 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 4:56 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
cube wrote:
Starvid wrote:
So what?
The American people has been looted by the superrich for the last 30 years. That's the big financing issue, not expensive oil. Just take the money back from the top 0,1 % and you can finance any number of anythings.
No country on this planet ever grew rich by declaring war against rich people.
Even in "socialistic" Sweden there are billionaires.
//
I have this theory it is exactly because of government regulation that has made it possible for wealth to be concentrated into so few hands. How is this possible? Isn't government regulation normally used for distributing and not concentrating wealth?
ahhh
That's the dirty secret.
We have had the same thing in Sweden, even worse on the wealth front. In the US the richest 1 % holds 30 % of all assets. In Sweden that's 40 %.
Why?
Because over the decades the socialist governments have squeezed the broad middle classes, eliminating middle class wealth while exempting the billionaires, as they would otherwise take all their money and leave. Not good for investments.
What's happened ion the US is that real wages haven't increased for 30 years. All new wealth and growth have gone to the rich. That's very different from Sweden where wages have kept rising all the time for ordinary people. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2880 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:05 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
MrBill wrote:
Starvid wrote:
So what?
The American people has been looted by the superrich for the last 30 years. That's the big financing issue, not expensive oil. Just take the money back from the top 0,1 % and you can finance any number of anythings.
The lowest 25-percentile pay almost no taxes net of payments they receive from the government. The bottom 50-percentile hardly pay any taxes net other than sales taxes. The next 25-percentile certainly pays its fair share of all taxes. But it is the top 25-percentile that pay the most taxes, while receiving the smallest benefit in terms of services or payments from the government in return.
The latest data I saw (from the UK) was that the top one percent pay 22-percent of all taxes. You can fleece the top 0.1% once, but it will not make the kind of differences you claim. But good luck trying to tax them a second time. They will be gone and so will their capital. Never mind that it is their savings that finance government borrowing in the first place.
The reality is not only are the great masses unwashed, but they are ungrateful too! ; - ))
So what?
First you should ask yourselves why these 1 % are in such a position that they pay 22 % of all taxes? That's because they have amassed a huge fraction of all new wealth. As simple as that.
Now, I don't think the principle that the rich should pay a disproprtionate amount of all taxes is a bad idea, I think they should.
I'm not a rabble rousing marxist (most people who know me put me to the right of Genhiz Khan), but what I primarily care about is the middle classes as they are the bedrock and stabilizer of society. They should take part in sharing the wealth.
And, as someone once said: "no one who pays taxes should recieve any [financial/cash] benefits, and no one who recieves benefits should pay taxes."
They could easily be discounted against each other in the annual tax reports, saving lots of administration.
PS. The fact that the middle class has been allowed to share the growth has given us this stupid credit crisis, a classic Keynesian demand crisis.
People get no wage increases-> finance consumption with credit-> never run out of credit as they refinance their ever more valuable homes-> home prices crash-> no more credit-> consumtption crash-> recession.
Oh how nice. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:10 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
Starvid, I really do not know where you get your information from? The only reason why firms such as IKEA can avoid paying income taxes is that they are set-up as charities. If Swedish politicians are not smart enough to close such blatant loopholes then why do Swedes trust them with more and more of their tax dollars?
Quote:
Sweden has a worldwide reputation as a high-tax welfare state. Moreover, unlike Denmark - its main competitor for the dubious honor of the world's highest tax burden - there are thus far no signs of tax weariness at the ballot box in Sweden. On the contrary, Sweden's dominant social democratic party has won national as well as local elections proposing higher taxes in recent years.
Is Sweden a success? Should the Scandinavian country be a role model or a bad example? In general, nations should not emulate the Swedish tax system. High tax rates and a heavy burden of government have combined to stunt economic performance and lower living standards. This is an unfortunate development for a nation that used to be among the world's richest - particularly since Sweden managed to avoid World War II and was well-positioned to prosper in the post-war environment.
But the news is not all grim. Despite its reputation as a high-tax welfare state, Sweden has implemented a handful of pro-growth reforms. The comprehensive tax reform that was implemented in 1991, for instance, lowered marginal tax rates and reduced the tax burden on saving and investment. Many of these positive changes have eroded, but Sweden continues to have a very competitive corporate tax regime.
Despite high nominal salaries in Sweden (and Skandinavia) that makes Swedes feel like they are wealthier than their European neighbors the sad truth is that on a PPP basis their disposable incomes do not buy any more than the average wage earner in Spain and Portugal who were dirt poor before they joined the EU whereas Sweden used to be a wealthy country.
I really do not care what social-welfare system Sweden chooses, but to hold it up as an example to other countries is just self-delusion. Governments do not create wealth and they cannot tax their country to prosperity.
Quote:
The tax burden in the Swedish economy tripled between 1950 and 1980. In 1970, when taxes were not much higher than they are in America today, Sweden's GDP per capita ranked fifth in the world4. Since taxes passed 50 percent of GDP the country's overall prosperity has dwindled, and the downturn has been most dramatic in measures of the standard of living. In 1970 Sweden ranked third in OECD for individual consumption, 39 percent above OECD average. By 1995, Sweden barely beat the OECD average, ranking 14th with an individual consumption 1.4 percent above OECD average, and has been stagnant since that time.5
If the rich few control more assets then the average majority it is pretty easy to figure out why when the government takes 50 cents of every euro earned in the economy leaving less to save and invest. Then compounded every euro above the average gives the high end earner an advantage over median taxpayer who's wages barely cover the necessities with correspondingly less left-over to save and invest. Multiply that effect over time and, bingo, you have a hollowed-out middle class and a few wealthy. The sick part of the joke is that you wished it upon yourselves! HAHA!
The Forbes Misery Index _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Last edited by MrBill on Wed Jun 11, 2008 5:28 am; edited 3 times in total
Joined: Feb 20, 2005 Posts: 2880 Location: Uppsala, Sweden
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:25 am Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
MrBill, your source is severly dated.
Quote:
Sweden has a worldwide reputation as a high-tax welfare state. Moreover, unlike Denmark - its main competitor for the dubious honor of the world's highest tax burden - there are thus far no signs of tax weariness at the ballot box in Sweden. On the contrary, Sweden's dominant social democratic party has won national as well as local elections proposing higher taxes in recent years.
The soc dems were thrown out in 2006 and replaced by the rightwing parties who won on a campaign to reduce unemployment by cutting taxes for low and medium income earners.
We have the best and most competitive (=cheapest) health care in the world. We have higher median wages than in the US. The only problem is high income taxes for low and medium earners, which is the main priority of the new government to deal with.
I really don't know were you get you GDP PPP data from. According to the World Bank, Swedish PPP GDP per capita is $34k, compared to $29k for Spain and $21k for Portugal. The number for the US is $44k, but it is not directly comparable as it doesn't show the median, but the average. A more relevant thing is to take the 1976 number for the US and add 2,6 %, which is how much real wages increased in the US since 1976, for everyone but the top 10 % whose real wages increased 58 %.
It's no secret that Sweden had a mad economic policy between about 1965 and 1991 and that we could have been much wealthier if we had done otherwise, but this doesn't change the fact that since 1976, 90 % of all Americans haven't gotten better off at all.
You don't have to choose between insane inequality and insane economic policy. The current US situation shows that you can have both.
And you can also choose to have neither. _________________ Peak oil is not an energy crisis. It is a liquid fuel crisis.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 12:57 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
The reason large airports and the Autobahn in Germany are concrete is the lasting quality. Just did an airport job and the concrete from WWII was still in great shape. THAT is old.
Concrete will NOT crack and peel up as stated if installed correctly. My street was put in in 1954 and is still very good. Try that with asphalt. Yes there is a cost diff but that is changing fast with oil cost and life cycle is the same or bettter for concrete now.
The reason we have so much asphalt as opposed to overseas is we take the LOWEST bid here instead of the best materials. So you get the cheapest asphalt and shorter life of the paving. Stupid I know but until we demand the BEST product we are stuck with paying for roads over and over.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 7:51 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
joelcolorado wrote:
The reason large airports and the Autobahn in Germany are concrete is the lasting quality. Just did an airport job and the concrete from WWII was still in great shape. THAT is old.
Concrete will NOT crack and peel up as stated if installed correctly.
I agree with this statement from my experience in Canada and northern states wiht buildings. But, when I see concrete structures in Florida and the Caribbean islands, it seems they degrade within 30 - 40- years, much surface erosion. I am not sure why. Is it the sun? Or is it the coral they use which may not be as strong as the crushed gravel we use here as aggregate? Or is it the slight element of salt in the air?
The salt is a real problem in winter climates here for roads, the elevated expressways in Montreal and Toronto, though concrete surfaced, were basically rebuilt after 35 years of use, due to sections crumbling. The concrete developed slight cracks which permitted the salty water to attack the rebar, which in turn caused swelling from rust leading to more cracking.
Posted: Wed Jun 11, 2008 10:15 pm Post subject: Re: Alternative to asphalt?
There you got it. Its the salt. I see rebar now with plastic or teflon coating on it to help with that. But asphalt has maybe a 7 yr life with maintenance every 2 years so its not any better plus more down time for working on it.
Concrete will soon take over again like it used to be.
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