How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:13 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
I did the numbers for our old car, and was surprised at the relative cost of gas. I'm a cheapskate, and do all my own car maintenance, buy stuff as cheap as possible, including cars. We bought a 1983 VW Rabbit for $1600, with 100,000 miles on it, in pretty good shape. My wife drives it about 20,000 miles/yr. to work (this year only, then she retires). So, I amortized the costs by 100k mi. / 20k mi. per year to get a 5 year life. We will keep it till it's dead, and junk it for maybe $100 scrap.
That is $1500/5 yrs. = $300/yr. Insurance is $200. Oil and filter costs me$12/ change x 5/ year (4,000 mi interval) = $60 +$2 for a tube of grease, = $62/yr. for lube and oil. I put in $200/yr. for misc repairs, since it wanted a water pump, a temp switch, antifreeze, etc., which is generous. A set of 12" tires costs about $200 and lasts 40,000 mi. = $100/ year. This adds up to $862/ year, for all costs except fuel.
It's a gas engine and gets 32 mpg reliably. 20,000 miles/32 mpg = 625 gallons/ year x $3.79 current price = $2368.75/ year.
Next year, when my wife retires, that fuel cost will drop to about 1/4, at 5,000 miles/ year, and maintenance costs will drop also, to a rough estimate of $560/year for all costs except fuel, and the gas cost will drop to about $600, or roughly equal.
This trend will be reflected in any situation, that is, the comparative costs of fuel vs. fixed costs will change as mileage/ year changes. However, from my figures, gasoline is NOT a small part of the total, in any case. For me anyway, but then I won't spend a cent at Jiffy lube. _________________ Local fix-it guy..
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:29 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Roy wrote:
On newer cars that are financed, gas price is not the majority of cost per mile (yet), but on cars that are paid off, minimally insured, and semi-reliable, gas price is probably the largest single cost. Especially if a person does their own maintenance.
classicspiderman, have you looked at numbers so that you will know when gasoline cost WILL be the largest factor in your specific situation? I would be interested to know that.
I assume that eventually, my insurance will go down and that I will be spending less money on maintaining as I become more self-reliant in doing so. I'll probably be taking a basic car maintenance course shortly (and I will consider the cost of those lessons as part of my total cost for the privilege of driving).
I might make a spreadsheet and try to figure out when the cost of gas exceeds 50% of the lifetime cost of paying for my car, maintaining it, insuring it, etc. It could be interesting.
I self-financed my car (with a line of credit from my bank) and paid it all off aggressively in about 7 months. Most people take a 5 year loan--and I imagine that interest on car payments are also a big cost factor. Yet all we hear in the media is the phrase: "Pain at the Pumps".
Keeping my car costs down is a long-term goal for me, but for the 10+ months that I've had a car, the price of fuel has been barely 5% of the total cost of having it. Of course, the longer I keep driving that same car, the fuel costs as a percentage of the total lifetime cost of said car should go up.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5353 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:25 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Even a large increase in the price of gasoline has hardly dented gasoline consumption. But the question is not whether one person on an individual level can afford to pay more - the question is whether the increase in the price of gasoline and diesel will reduce economic activity. The answer is - yes, very much so. Rising energy costs reduce economic activity - with a lag - to the extent alternatives and efficiencies can not be developed. The primary reason this did not happen earlier is that the US got more finished goods in exchange for dollars (increased trade deficit) - which can not increase forever to offset the continued rising price.
So yes, I am saying if the US doesn't become much more efficient or develop new ways of doing business we are going to have one long and deepening recession.
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4059 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
$150 for an oil change. Wow.
Where I live (USA) it's $29.95 and other than an occasional set of tires that's all we ever do for our cars. The periodic servicing suggested by the car dealers and manufacturers is 99% a scam to get you to waste $$ at the dealership every so often. We have never done any of it thereby saving thousands of dollars over the decades. In fact, we've probably saved enough to buy a new car.
Change the oil often, replace filters, fix what's broke, that's all.
I can't believe people still fall for the 'service myth' and pay hundreds for periodic service on a perfect vehicle. PT Barnam comes to mind. _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Classic Spidey, you should learn to do your own basic stuff. I do major repairs on my cars which is why I can afford to drive them. If your car is cheap and your maintenance costs are low, gas is a significant portion of your overall cost.
My '96 dodge cost me 4500 dollars 3 year ago and I'll very likely be driving it 3 years from now. So it costs 750 per year. My insurance is 1000 per annum. My registration is 70. My fuel is 1400. I spend 60/yr on oil changes. My car has been a POS so it has cost me 2000 in parts, or 666/year since '05.
The POS ate up a downpipe, four rotors, water pump, cam belt and idlers, two rebuilt calipers, 3 wheel bearings, two tires, and two lower control arms in the three years I've owned it.
Those parts/repairs would have been easily double the cost in overcharging and labour.
Luckily for me I'm very skilled and do all my own work!
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 11:05 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Quote:
I requested a lot of things beyond just a simple oil change (the kind that is required every 50,000 km or so).
Yeah sure. Like I said, for 150 bucks I do a complete tune up.
Number 1 :
I wouldn't trust the 6 dollars an hour transients at Jiffy Lube to top up the oil - forget about changing it.
Number 2 :
If you had anything whatsoever done beyond getting an oil change, you're making a mistake. Like I said, the people who work at Jiffy Lube are standing on the line of "chronically unemployable".
Number 3 :
You most likely paid 150 bucks for a bunch of crap like "check and fill all fluids" or "inspect brakes" or "grease door hinges".
You were ripped off because you're the kind of guy - if you are a guy - who fits the Jerry Seinfeld quip . . .
"When my car breaks down and I'm on a date, I feel obligated to go pop the hood. But the thing is, unless there's a giant switch in the "off" position that I can just flip to the "on" position, I wouldn't know what to do."
I guess it's a bias of mine.
I find guys who are too lazy/incompetent to change their own oil to usually be soft metrosexual types or weenie liberals. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:25 pm Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
ClassicSpiderman Wrote ;>>>>
Wah wah wah. I have little sympathy for those who live and do business in Las Vegas, the symbol of American gluttony and over-consumption.
My reply is that you must have been to Vegas once before and we cleaned out your bank account on the craps table......
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 1:58 pm Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Quote:
Keeping my car costs down is a long-term goal for me, but for the 10+ months that I've had a car, the price of fuel has been barely 5% of the total cost of having it. Of course, the longer I keep driving that same car, the fuel costs as a percentage of the total lifetime cost of said car should go up.
So then is it really accurate for you to come on here and tell us that gas is not a significant factor of driving when you've only had a car for less than a year and your balance of payments (getting the car paid for at quickly as possible [smart though], high insurance costs, etc.) is completely out of tune with what most people pay? Come back after 5 years with that car, do the numbers again and you'll see that gas is a pretty high factor of about 40%. And that's at "cheap" gas prices too! _________________ Riches are not from abundance of worldly goods, but from a contented mind.
Joined: Nov 18, 2004 Posts: 1025 Location: Central Texas
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 8:14 pm Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
I bought my 2003 Honda Insight in July of that year and have kept up the spreadsheet on all the costs. Here is the pie chart:
The car was paid off about a year ago so the gasoline fraction will only become greater wrt the cost of the car and interest paid as time goes by.
Edit:
btw, the lifetime mpg is 56.6. It had 112,316 miles on May 17th.
I hate my commute. _________________ About my avatar: A glassy sphere and a mineral particle magnified 1500 times using a scanning electron microscope.
Last edited by PeakOiler on Mon May 19, 2008 6:13 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 10:07 pm Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Wow Peak Oiler - that is some awesome record keeping.
Damn, I feel like a disorganized slob by comparison. _________________ Massive Human Dieoff must occur as a result of Peak Oil. Many more than half will die. It will occur everywhere, including where you live. If you fail to recognize this, then your odds of living move toward the "going to die" group.
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1011 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 9:47 am Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Cashmere wrote:
JoeW - hilarious - you're right.
Nowadays, with overpopulation and all, there're a couple of suckers born every minute.
150$ at Jiffy Lube!
Wow! He did get lubed!
Nah, the only person getting lubed is the person who should be at work making his $80 an hour, but instead decides to "save money" and spend 3 hours doing an oil change.
He didn't list what he had done for $150, so its hard to say anyway.
In addition, others have pointed out the atypical part of his auto use patterns, and then go to site their own atypical auto use pattern that just happens to support their own point that gas is expensive.
Reality check to all.. At $4 a gallon, fuel makes up about 30-40% of the cost of driving for the typical US driver. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
Joined: Jun 18, 2004 Posts: 702 Location: Western North Carolina
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:22 pm Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Quote:
Nah, the only person getting lubed is the person who should be at work making his $80 an hour, but instead decides to "save money" and spend 3 hours doing an oil change.
Just how many people make that much money in the USA? Less than 5% on a good day I would guess. This page shows 3.16% of American households make more than $150k/yr.
So for you < 5 percent-ers that bank $160k+ per year, and work when you want to, and are not on salary, then by all means do not 'waste' your time working on your car.
And does it really take you three hours to do an oil change? Last time I did one of mine, it took no more than 15 minutes unless you count the five or so minutes I played with my dogs.
So yes, if it takes you three hours to change the engine oil on a car, then you would be better off staying away toolboxes and yucky internal combustion engines.
For the rest of us poor working slobs and salarymen, working on our own cars saves money, gives some pride in accomplishment, assures the job is done right, and removes commission hunting "service advisers" and $6/hr ill-trained incompetents/transients from the equation.
Not to mention that developing hands-on skills and creating some independence from corporate proxies is what preparation for PO is all about.
Joined: Oct 06, 2006 Posts: 1011 Location: was rwwff
Posted: Mon May 19, 2008 1:47 pm Post subject: Re: Price of gas is a SMALL FACTOR for the cost of driving.
Roy wrote:
And does it really take you three hours to do an oil change? Last time I did one of mine, it took no more than 15 minutes unless you count the five or so minutes I played with my dogs.
Certainly, if you have the skill and familiarity to do an oil change in 15 minutes, no reason you shouldn't. Though, considering my oil changes cost $21.60 after tax, I'm not sure the logic holds, but still.
My POINT however, is that the thread is discussing the FACT that gasoline is a small factor in the cost of driving for nearly all Americans. Most DO NOT change their own oil; Most DO NOT do there own tune ups; Most DO NOT do any of that sort of thing. They pay thousands every year, for each car they own, either directly, or indirectly through depreciation.
Quote:
yucky internal combustion engines.
They aren't particularly yucky, but they are a bit fragile.. then again I'm much more inclined to grab a sledge and see what I can make fit, rather than ask why it doesn't fit.... Though I wonder why people don't ask me to fix stuff....
I see you laugh... thinking I joke. not.
Quote:
Not to mention that developing hands-on skills and creating some independence from corporate proxies is what preparation for PO is all about.
PO Prep is not about changing oil in a car. Convincing myself not to use the sledge on the bicycle is a bit higher on my priority list. (sledge is in the barn... bike is in the garage, usually the temptation fades before I can fetch it.)
You really want to save money? Ditch the car. Personally, I'm not ready to go that far yet.
Quote:
Other than stockpiling ammunition..
See we can agree on something too... Comfort is a few thousand rounds stashed somewhere dark, cool, and dry. _________________ Yes, we are. As we are.
And so shall we remain; Until the end.
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