Posted: Wed May 14, 2008 4:43 pm Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
MustaphaMond wrote:
I can't see how Scotland, Ireland or Wales can ever truly be independent of England. If things go bad in England they will get dragged down sooner or later by it. So the question about Scottish independence is actually one about how sustainable England is. If England is self sufficient then the Scots, Irish and Welsh will be allowed to be independent and will have a bright post PO future, If not then they aren't.
Now this is not to say that Scotland might not declare independence and that it may not be accepted by a Westminster govt. but more that the English Govt or people in one way or another will rescind that independence, if England ever gets into trouble. The same can really be said of Ireland and Wales.
So is England self sufficient, I don't think so, it all turns on food. We were barely able to feed ourselves in WW2 with a population of Approx. 40 Million and the Scots/Irish helping. Today it is approx. 50 million, most of the improvements in yields are a result of the Green Revolution and with Peak Oil comes the Green Counter Revolution in which most of the gains of the Green revolution will be lost.
England has more arable land than any other part of the UK which explains its dominance, But that also means that there is less room for improvement approx. 70% of Scotland is pasture, if only a small amount of this could be converted to arable they could make a great increase in their food supply. Only 37% of England is pasture, much less improvement via changing use is possible. Secondly England is low lying with is best Farm land in parts close or even below sea level, any improvements England does make due to land use change will be more than offset by sea level rises.
I suppose England could get food from much further afield, but it requires either the ability to sell something unique and necessary, or to send and sustain armies on different continents and have ships to get the booty back to England neither of which England appears to possess.
There was a piece of research done on this a couple of years back, an update of something from the 1970s. In short it said that Britain (that's England Scotland & Wales) could feed itself (barely), but England could not. Apparently England has 9 million too many people, so let's hope many English people choose to emigrate and the rest turn vegan!
I think if England really was at the point of starvation then it would drag in neighbouring nations. I can imagine an extreme government being elected and conscription being introduced. Who knows what might follow; an invasion of another country, regime change, followed by 15 million English settlers perhaps? It might seem ridiculous now but who knows what's possible in desperate times.
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
The sooner your gone the better.
Men wearing skirts, drinking whisky, permantley pissed, tossing your cabers, hateing us sassenachs.
Load of chucktas the lot a yez.
Same with the Welsh. Ireland can have NI should they so wish.
We'll get Hadrian back to build the wall. Pendolinos stop at Carlisle. M6 blocked at Border. A1 blocked at Berwick on Tweed (THATS OURS!!!!!!!!). IC125 stop at Newcastle.
Oh, and OFFA can come back & re-dig his dyke !!!
SORTED.
Gasmon _________________ Constantus excrementia et level variatum
Were allways in the sh|t, its only the depth that varies
Posted: Thu May 15, 2008 5:24 pm Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
Just to clarify this, even though Scottish people serve in the the British parliament, they still exist as a nation, do they not? I always thought of Scotland a country and the Scottish people as a nationality. At least here in Canda, people from Scotland or of Scottish descent do not consider themselves to be British or English. I think one would be taken to taask for doing so. Just like with Irish, they do not consider themselves English.
I always thought Edinburgh was the capital of Scotland. Similar to how Quebec City is the capital of Quebec. Just as Quebec is a part of Canada, it like Scotland, also has a form of independence. Maybe not 100% independence as they share military eqipment and the like with England, but approximately. And, even speaking of the military, Scotland even has its own battalions and regiments, comprised of Scotish people.
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:33 am Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
GASMON wrote:
We'll get Hadrian back to build the wall. Pendolinos stop at Carlisle. M6 blocked at Border. A1 blocked at Berwick on Tweed (THATS OURS!!!!!!!!). IC125 stop at Newcastle.
Do we turn the oil and gas pipes off as well then?
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 6:45 am Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
energycity wrote:
There was a piece of research done on this a couple of years back, an update of something from the 1970s. In short it said that Britain (that's England Scotland & Wales) could feed itself (barely), but England could not. Apparently England has 9 million too many people, so let's hope many English people choose to emigrate and the rest turn vegan!
Scotlands 1700s population is not that much smaller than todays. Alls those Mc's and Mac's in Canada, London, Australia and Texas came from somewhere.... but more to the point the amount of renewable energy in Scotland and Norway is almost embarrasing. Both countries have long thing sea lochs that are easily damnable and can be used to create tidal power. Not to mention the huge amount of wind that they and Ireland could generate. Its a matter of identifying the problem and getting on with local solutions.
The South West of England has huge renewable energy potential as well. 5% of the UKs total electricity could come from a Severn tidal power station. Near enough for the region. The North East has literaly proverbial amounts of coal and a bit of oil and gas and huge wind potential.
Area by area there is an awfull lot that can be done to meet a future of depleating energy. All except the South East.
If its walls people are wanting to build build them on the M25 (says me living in Londinium at the minute).
The keys to meeting future challanges will require as much international action as can be mustered but will need local people to come up with local solutions. I dont think the fixed Byzantian system of central government in Westminister village is able to be as flexible and local as the needs of the people will be. Nor do I think that they will be able to see away from London and its needs as being national priority no 1. Like Rome in the time of the Ceasars, a centre that drains the regions.
As long as you are looking at a diet of loads of potatoes and bread, you can strech land for food much further than the current McDonalds and Kebab diets of the modern UK.
Joined: Jun 26, 2007 Posts: 1126 Location: The Canada of America
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 8:10 am Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
Denny wrote:
Just to clarify this, even though Scottish people serve in the the British parliament, they still exist as a nation, do they not?
Don't confuse "nation" and "nation-state". Scotland, like Quebec, is the former, but not the latter. That is, neither has a seat on the UN or other international body. And frankly, it sucks the the English, Welsh, Scots, Manx, Northern Irish, etc. etc. etc. all get separate representation at things like the Commonwealth Games or in soccer, because it just gives the British that many more chances than everyone else to grab the prizes!
Denny wrote:
At least here in Canda, people from Scotland or of Scottish descent do not consider themselves to be British or English.
British, yes, English, no. I'm mostly Scottish and I'm definitely British. It's the Irish who resent either label.
Denny wrote:
I always thought Edinburgh was the capital of Scotland. Similar to how Quebec City is the capital of Quebec. Just as Quebec is a part of Canada, it like Scotland, also has a form of independence. Maybe not 100% independence as they share military eqipment and the like with England, but approximately. And, even speaking of the military, Scotland even has its own battalions and regiments, comprised of Scotish people.
Quebec has a lot more sovereignty in the Canadian federation than Scotland has in Britain. Canada's Parliament, for instance, cannot constitutionally abolish the government or parliament of the province of Quebec; it's semi-sovereign and is not a creature of the federal government... no Canadian province is (though the territories are). The British Parliament, on the other hand, does have it within its power to do this to the Scottish Parliament since the UK is still technically a unitary state, with some powers devolved locally. Essentially, Scotland is really a gigantic municipality constitutionally. Look at the way Westminster has jerked around with the government of Northern Ireland in recent years to get some idea of just how sovereign the constituent "countries" of the UK actually are. _________________ I can has cheezburger?
Posted: Fri May 16, 2008 10:39 am Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
dorlomin wrote:
Area by area there is an awfull lot that can be done to meet a future of depleating energy. All except the South East.
If its walls people are wanting to build build them on the M25 (says me living in Londinium at the minute).
Yes, brilliant - you're quite right! There's lots of potential we just need to cull the South-East and England's peak oil problems would be sorted! (only kidding, I have some family down there).
Actually, through history, London and the South-East has always had excellent earning power. It also has some fine agricultural land and the climate's good (bit of a water shortage). If any level of trade still exists it is possible to imagine the region would be able to import many basic food products from France, Poland etc.
The region also has energy potential; the London Array project, if built, will supply enough electricity to power a quarter of Greater London homes. Plus the world's largest offshore windfarm is to be built off the Suffolk coast. Not to mention nuclear power (Bradwell in Essex, Sizewell in Suffolk).
If London and the South-East were able to be sustainable I think so also would the other regions in England. I'm confident Scotland and Wales would survive. I've less knowledge of Northern Ireland.
I'm one of the few people who wanted to see England set up 'Regional Assemblies'. What was missing was the Assemblies having any serious power; they were presented as big, expensive, white elephants. We need sustainable regions; it's time for a rethink.
Posted: Sat May 17, 2008 7:31 am Post subject: Re: Scottish Independence.
rockdoc123 wrote:
No more single malt for you Gasmon!!
And you can forget getting any more tins of Walkers bickkies either!!
English bastard...
BTW Hadrians wall II is OK as long as you agree to keep the Geordies on your side.
Ah! - apologies, forgot about the Glenfiddich & the wonderful peaty Lagavulin !!!!. Perhaps we'll leave a little hole in the wall to allow a little bartering - Carlisle side only as those Geordies might mix it with their bruuwn ale !!!.
I have no great disrespect of the Scots people, (occasional tit for tat rant excepted). The greedy politicians we have on both sides of the border, constantly lining their own pockets at all our expense, and through their policies setting ordinary people against each other in the process, well, they really upset me.
Gasmon _________________ Constantus excrementia et level variatum
Were allways in the sh|t, its only the depth that varies
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It might seem ridiculous now but who knows what's possible in desperate times.
(only kidding, I have some family down there).
