Guns?

Legless_Marine · Coal Joined: Apr 30, 2008 Posts: 18

{Hey guys, I split this from the five rules thread so we can keep that thread on topic. Pops}

davep · Expert Joined: Jun 21, 2006 Posts: 1252 Location: Europe

Pops · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:21 am Post subject: Re: Guns?

When I lived in CA it hacked me off that there was a right to carry law but in reality no one was allowed to carry even though from time to time I hauled around a case with close to a million dollar of diamonds and was the guy called in the middle of the night when the alarm went off at the jewelry store chain HQ went off.

Now in a right to carry state for going on 4 years I still haven't applied for a CCP, though I have and can use an unobtrusive CC weapon.

I agree out on the street easy access certainly could make one dumb.

Though I know my gun I sure don't have the training to wield it in public, at my house is a different matter.
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Cashmere · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Mar 27, 2008 Posts: 1971

Whether or not having a gun make you dumb, not having it makes you virtually helpless, in many situations.

I checked Cashmere's math theorems and found that, in the event of an emergency,

virtually helpless << dumb and armed.

Some people don't like guns simply because they're bleeding heart leftists who grew up anti-gun.

You'll be able to recognize them - they'll be the loud, well-spoken ones in the detention camps.

GeoJAP · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:39 am Post subject: Re: Guns?

You have a responsibility to take care of yourself and those who depend on you for their livelihood and survival, like your family. You have a responsibility to be able to provide for their safety. If you are ever threatened with deadly force so that you will not be able to make it home to your family, you have a responsibility to defend yourself so that you can still provide for those who depend on you.

I do not perceive this view to be liberal or conservative, per se. Rather, something along the lines of being able to handle life's responsibilities and the demands placed upon a person by the world in which we live. Luckily I live in a state with a very strong belief that there is an inherent right to protect one's Liberty.

On a slightly different note, target shooting can be really fun and challenging. I grew up target shooting with BB guns and that has translated into target shooting with rimfire and centerfire rifles, as well as shooting some skeet when I can.

BigTex · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:42 am Post subject: Re: Guns?

The thing about violence, any violence, is that it leads to more violence.

The misunderstanding many people have about the use of violence is that it is a way of ending a matter or solving a problem, but it's not. It simply moves the problem from the realm of non-violence to violence, but the problem not only continues, but it usually actually expands.

If a bad guy is coming at you and you shoot and kill him, then it's true that the problem of the bad guy is solved, but there is the new problem of the bad guy's associates who may now feel more justified in the use of force, since they may view you as having introduced violence in the first place.

A good rule of thumb is to ALWAYS assume that violence begets more violence.

There are clearly instances where administering violence is entirely appropriate, but anyone who does it should be mindful that no matter how many caps they put into today's enemy/intruder, that is probably not going to be the end of it.

As the instructor in my concealed carry course told us many years ago: "shooting someone is not the end of the problem, it's usually the beginning of the problem."

Moral: better to make heroic efforts to avoid violence and succeed than to use violence, even if perfectly justified. Even if you control the initial use of it, the chain of events you set in motion will very quickly get to be outside your control.
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GeoJAP · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:47 am Post subject: Re: Guns?

joeltrout · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Sep 19, 2007 Posts: 1317

I think guns play a vital role in peak oil preparations but not necessarily for personal protection. A gun allows a person to hunt for food which is much more likely than defending off zombie hoards.

joeltrout

aflurry · Intermediate Crude Joined: Mar 28, 2005 Posts: 826

hey legless, interested in that Heinlein idea. Where is it from?

i've been thinking of getting a gun as well. but it is not a priority. And I have to reconcile some pretty fierce feelings about how retarded the right wing gun lobby is.

i swear the NRA should wake up and understand that one of their main missions should be preventing gun crimes. can you imagine a partnership between the NRA and inner city community gang conflict groups? of course not. because The NRA is embedded in a old american race/class/culture/property war already in progress.

if i knew nothing about America and someone asked me to describe the activities and function of a hypothetical NRA, and then i found out that actually they were NOT involved in community development in violence prone urban areas, i'd be like, "WTF?"

any lefties finding themselves getting seduced by gun-based survivalist fantasies should dig a little further into the content of those fantasies and consider whether they are something worth encouraging in their own minds or the minds of others. maybe, but probably not. irrational fear is a tested recruiting tool for the right.

i especially feel the welling nausea when the gun is seen is some ersatz token for freedom, and that its existence in our own hands or our enemies makes the real honest, brave, difficult, compromised, negotiated, interdependent, long fight for freedom seem naive or stupid.

when people scold me that had the various victims of history only been armed enough, they wouldn't have been sent to the camps or cells or mass graves, and so guns are the only assurance of freedom.

But in my mother's old neighborhood in Oakland people were trapped in their houses as a result of an arms race, and in tribal Pakistan armed religious zealots ensure obediance to oppressive religion. And i still think that it isn't the guns' fault per se. But it is definitely the fault of the lazy idiots who over and over again insist that they have a little shortcut to freedom in their pocket. It's not the guns that are the problem, it's the gun nuts.

GeoJAP · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:56 am Post subject: Re: Guns?

BigTex · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 11:59 am Post subject: Re: Guns?

Jack · Dark Lord Joined: Aug 11, 2004 Posts: 5088

GeoJAP · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:09 pm Post subject: Re: Guns?

Aflurry, I take umbrage with your uninformed characterization of "gun nuts". I think I have elucidated a practical and logical approach to the issue of firearms. If my comments could properly be attributed to the "gun nut" element, I'd like to hear the supporting arguments for that assertion.

There is a logical fallacy in your argument as well. After reading your post, I don't know exactly who these "gun nuts" are; this warrants a more thorough definition on your part. Are they NRA members, hunters, collectors, target shooters, the criminal element? I'm not sure. But I would say that the problem is obviously with those who misuse firearms, either through negligence or use them in a criminal fashion. Not "gun nuts".

Pops · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:12 pm Post subject: Re: Guns?

Lots of great thoughts.

I am a liberal, thought perhaps not the bleeding heart kind and a huge fan of right to carry - the narrow minded labels sure get tiring.

At any rate let me point out the difference between CA with a concealed carry law that might as well be non-existent and MO with a real right to carry.

In CA all you need to do is be young, wear a big coat with a sports team logo in August and walk with a swagger and all the law abiding folks in line at the Quick Sack think you are surely carrying so you can just walk up to the front of the line swearing and strutting all the way and everyone just squats like a hen and lets you pass.

In MO people young and old are much more polite because the guy in jeans or slacks could be carrying a permit in his wallet as well as something in the waistband.

The best thing is I get in much less trouble out here from my wife for getting my hair up and telling the punks to back off and watch their mouths. In fact I have never had the need.
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canis_lupus · Posted: Fri May 02, 2008 12:17 pm Post subject: Re: Guns?

I've got hand tools for making things I need post peak

I've got seeds and plants in the ground so I can feed my family post peak

I've got my biodiesel for transportation, I've got my bees for honey to trade

And I consider guns to be tools to help feed my family and to defend our lives and property. What's the point of preparing for PO when you are going to run away from it all to avoid conflict and give up your property?

There are two different perpsectives going on here: the 'now' where you lefties wouldn't think of defending yourselves and the 'post-peak' where you would find guys like me who could feed you and your families because your preparations didn't include all the necessary tools. Good luck with that.

There are guns in every household in the ghettos in Chicago and I'm pretty sure nobody is planning for PO there by way of gardening. It's a day's walk from the lakefront to my neighborhood. Do the math. Let the realization wash over you like dawn on a summer day.

Listen, we should get a post going with the locations of stashes of posters who don't want to defend themselves or their stuff in a post-peak environment. That way when you die your stuff will go to good use by the people who were prepared.