The government raids on polygamists in the southwest us are:
Appropriate-those kids were abused
45%
[ 30 ]
Religious Bigotry
18%
[ 12 ]
A Little from column a, a little from column b
36%
[ 24 ]
Total Votes : 66
Author
Message
wisconsin_cur Moderator
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 12:46 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Hutterite: Not a social problem since WW1, when they fled to Canada because of negative interactions with authorities during the draft (negative interactions shared by all Anabaptist).
They look funny:
They share a community of goods. (ie live on "ranches" or colonies)
They educate their own children.
The speak another language (a form of low German known as Hutterite German).
And we have not raided them, persecuted them or taken away their kids. Why? They aren't treating them like sexual meat. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5317 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 2:25 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
what about the plain Quakers or the Amish? What about the hippies living on the street in San Fran? What about the home schooling movement? What about the Hutterites? there are plenty of different groups out there that are free to live their lives as they wish.
Exactly. The government may go after them next.
State governments in the past have battled the Amish and other religious groups that don't believe schooling is necessary for their children. The state of California has just outlawed "homeschooling" unless the moms have a teaching certificate. The government in the 19th and early 20th century regularly took kids away from Indians and raised them in special "Indian Schools".
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"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:07 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Plantagenet wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
what about the plain Quakers or the Amish? What about the hippies living on the street in San Fran? What about the home schooling movement? What about the Hutterites? there are plenty of different groups out there that are free to live their lives as they wish.
Exactly. The government may go after them next.
State governments in the past have battled the Amish and other religious groups that don't believe schooling is necessary for their children. The state of California has just outlawed "homeschooling" unless the moms have a teaching certificate. The government in the 19th and early 20th century regularly took kids away from Indians and raised them in special "Indian Schools".
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"But you must remember, my fellow-citizens, that eternal vigilance by the people is the price of liberty, and that you must pay the price if you wish to secure the blessing. It behooves you, therefore, to be watchful in your States as well as in the Federal Government." -- Andrew Jackson, Farewell Address, March 4, 1837
And the supreme court ruled In favor of the Amish. Wisconsin vs Yoder.
You made the point that they go after the mormons (as if this group were representative of all mormons) every generation and go after them because they are different. No it is because their banging 14 year olds. period. period. period.
And even if we did do it every generation, how does that jive with the argument that they are going to go after the Hutterites next? If they are doing it every generation than they should have gotten to the Hutterites by now.
Now i'm glad banging 14 year olds makes them different otherwise that would meant that as a culture we had decided that it was ok for 50 year old men to bang 15 year old girls. People who commit murder are different too, I'm glad we lock them away. People who stand in the middle of the street and rip small kittens into many pieces in front of small children are different too, I'm glad we do not have a place for them in society.
The California case is another case. I guess we will have to see how it works out. given the Supreme Court's record on the issue I'm not too afraid. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 3:23 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Plantagenet wrote:
Its true that if abuse is going on in a household, the state protective services can remove all the children in a household. Thats a good thing.
But the FLDS church members and all the children seized did not all live in one household. All they had in common was membership in the FLDS church.
We are talking about a belief system which holds as some of its central tenants things which are illegal and constitute child abuse. One is not allowed to train a child to be a suicide bomber, since nothing wrong has been done until the child straps on a vest.
Likewise telling little girls that it is God's will that they submit to the sexual desires of their 50 year old "spiritual husbands" is God's will, even if they are 10 and will not be married for 3-4 years, is called "grooming." It is considered emotional abuse and can result in the child being removed from the home.
Now the way around the government is very easy. Wait until the girls are 17. Minority groups (like the Amish and the Hutterites) have made plenty of adjustments to American society, Mennonites went so far as to begin speaking English. During times of a draft all of the Anabaptist send their children "into the world" to do alternative service.
Asking 50 year old FLDS men to wait another 3 years to start lovin' on their brides seems like a small and reasonable price to ask them to pay.
But they are not willing to do that? Has anyone bothered to ask "why?" _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:13 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Plantagenet wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Its true that if abuse is going on in a household, the state protective services can remove all the children in a household. Thats a good thing.
But the FLDS church members and all the children seized did not all live in one household. All they had in common was membership in the FLDS church.
We are talking about a belief system which holds as some of its central tenants things which are illegal and constitute child abuse.
You've changed the subject from actual abuse to what you imagine to be thought crimes implicit in the "belief system" of the FLDS church.
Even the government in Texas hasn't claimed that it can seize people's children simply because of their "illegal" teachings or their "belief system."
Yes they can. It is called emotional abuse. You don't have to like. you don't have to believe in it. But of course those of us who work with kids see it all of the time. The same thing goes if you tell your kid that they are a "worthless piece of crap" and that you "wish they had never been born" everyday. It is your belief system, the kid is a "worthless piece of crap" and you sincerely wish they had never been born. It is still emotional abuse and the state will remove the kid from the home. For that matter they will remove all of the children from the home.
As I've said before, Training young women to be the sexual property of another is called "grooming." It is considered abusive if someone is grooming their niece or nephew and it is abusive if it is done by a Catholic priest or a protestant pastor. Hard to prove, I admit. But when you walk in and find a bunch of pregnate 15 year olds, kinda makes you think.
If it looks like a goose, honks like a goose, bites like a goose...
All they have to do is wait until the girls are 17. Is that too much to ask of this religious group. 36 months? I'm not an expert in the Book of Mormon, does it say some where "If the woman bleed, she must breed." I doubt it.
They got lots of wives. The wives are suppose to be nice and submissive. Think they could wait 36 months?
Maybe they just need to jam out to a little Ronnie McDowel? You Tube Link _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5317 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:41 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Plantagenet wrote:
Its true that if abuse is going on in a household, the state protective services can remove all the children in a household. Thats a good thing.
But the FLDS church members and all the children seized did not all live in one household. All they had in common was membership in the FLDS church.
We are talking about a belief system which holds as some of its central tenants things which are illegal and constitute child abuse.
You've changed the subject from actual abuse to what you imagine to be thought crimes implicit in the "belief system" of the FLDS church.
Even the government in Texas hasn't claimed that it can seize people's children simply because of their "illegal" teachings or their "belief system."
... emotional abuse.....
It seems to me that the state of Texas is emotionally abusing these kids when it forcibly takes them away from their moms and ships them off to foster care in institutions scattered around the state of Texas.
The state has so far been much more efficient at carrying out a collective punishment of all the FLDS church members by seizing the innocent children and breaking up mother-child relationships then it has at identifying the actual abusers.
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:49 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
so
1) are you denying that it is emotional abuse to raise children to, at the age of 14, "marry" men three times their age, submit to them, and produce as many children as possible?
2) do you believe that it is too much to ask of a religious minority that they should wait until 17 to send their children into arranged marriages to men 2-3 times their age?
Go on record in regard to some of the facts here Planet Agent. Hate the government all you want. I distrust it to. That does not mean that everyone who is on the receiving end of the long arm of the law is innocent. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: Apr 09, 2007 Posts: 5317 Location: Alaska (its much bigger than Texas).
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 6:53 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
wisconsin_cur wrote:
That does not mean that everyone who is on the receiving end of the long arm of the law is innocent.
Of course not.
What crime do you imagine the FLDS kids and/or their moms are guilty of that justifies the Texas state government taking the kids away from their moms and institutionalizing the kids?
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 7:25 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Since you seem to have difficulty I will say it nice and slow.
1) 50 year old men inserting their penis into the vagina of 14 year old girls.
2) Training (grooming) young girls that it is God's will that 50 year old men should insert their penises into their vagina. In fact they are so without worth in and of themselves that the only way they can get to heaven is by letting 50 year old men insert their penis into their vagina.
3) Training young men to exploit young women in the same way.
If that is not enough we have touched on many other parts of how the FLDS works in the pages of this discussion. There are other things but I don't want to be confusing.
The mothers teach this. Even if the mothers were innocent of teaching this it is common practice to remove children from the environment where 50 year old men are inserting their penises into 14 year old girls, even if a particular girl has not had a penis inserted into her vagina.
It happens every day in your state. In trailer parks, in suburbs, in rural areas and, yes, even occasionally on ranches that house religious minorities. Because you see everyday women and mothers across the nation deny that abuse is taking place. The coerce their children to shut up about the abuse to protect uncle Bill or because they cannot believe that it happened.
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edit:
Oh I now see your problem. We cannot take away the men without a trial. Overall it is considered humane to not leave kids with the abusers until the trial. Witness tampering, continuing abuse etc..
Perhaps it would be better and more constitutional if we locked the men up indefinietly until evidence is gathered? _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Joined: Dec 18, 2004 Posts: 4129 Location: One Mile From the Columbia River
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:40 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Plantagenet wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Perhaps it would be better and more constitutional if we locked the men up indefinietly until evidence is gathered?
The constitution can be annoying about the need for evidence and such trifles.
Yes, it can. It was a source of constant irritation for my crew and whenever we could get away with it we simply ignored the darn thing. More and more LE people will be doing it too as time marches on. No question about it. _________________ Everything is Impermanent. Shakyamuni Buddha
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2740 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 8:42 pm Post subject: Re: Polygamy raids
Plantagenet wrote:
wisconsin_cur wrote:
Perhaps it would be better and more constitutional if we locked the men up indefinietly until evidence is gathered?
The constitution can be annoying about the need for evidence and such trifles.
-sarcasim-
Yeah we should allow kids to stay in abusive situations. Sometime I'll tell you about my work week, kids beat up, forced into prostitution by their mothers, Uncle Phil put his hand up the girl's skirt, step-dad raped little Julie every time he got drunk (every third day) and the girl told to shut up by mom or that Julie had "asked for it."
We should wait until the trial is over before removing kids from those situations.
-end sarcasim-
you can keep your g-d darn "purity" (which is of course the artificial construct of a second-rate mind).
Kids can, should and (thankfully) are removed from those situations everyday. Your holier than thou attitude makes me sick you would leave these kids in those environments to meet your own sense of purity.
You are as bad as any other fundamentalist. _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
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