Rog - You are a bright guy, I wish there were more of you in my camp. The Bible is not silent on these issues either.
Amo 8:4-7 Hear this, O ye that swallow up the needy, even to make the poor of the land to fail, (5) Saying, When will the new moon be gone, that we may sell corn? and the sabbath, that we may set forth wheat, making the ephah small, and the shekel great, and falsifying the balances by deceit? (6) That we may buy the poor for silver, and the needy for a pair of shoes; yea, and sell the refuse of the wheat? (7) The LORD hath sworn by the excellency of Jacob, Surely I will never forget any of their works.
Rev 18:3 For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
Rev 18:7 How much she hath glorified herself, and lived deliciously, so much torment and sorrow give her: for she saith in her heart, I sit a queen, and am no widow, and shall see no sorrow.
Rev 18:8-9 Therefore shall her plagues come in one day, death, and mourning, and famine; and she shall be utterly burned with fire: for strong is the Lord God who judgeth her. (9) And the kings of the earth, who have committed fornication and lived deliciously with her, shall bewail her, and lament for her, when they shall see the smoke of her burning,
Rev 18:11-12 And the merchants of the earth shall weep and mourn over her; for no man buyeth their merchandise any more: (12) The merchandise of gold, and silver, and precious stones, and of pearls, and fine linen, and purple, and silk, and scarlet, and all thyine wood, and all manner vessels of ivory, and all manner vessels of most precious wood, and of brass, and iron, and marble.......
Rev 18:17-19 For in one hour so great riches is come to nought. And every shipmaster, and all the company in ships, and sailors, and as many as trade by sea, stood afar off, (18. And cried when they saw the smoke of her burning, saying, What city is like unto this great city! (19) And they cast dust on their heads, and cried, weeping and wailing, saying, Alas, alas, that great city, wherein were made rich all that had ships in the sea by reason of her costliness! for in one hour is she made desolate.
Rev 18:23 And the light of a candle shall shine no more at all in thee; and the voice of the bridegroom and of the bride shall be heard no more at all in thee: for thy merchants were the great men of the earth; for by thy sorceries were all nations deceived.
You have to admit you and I can at least agree on these issues. Judgement is coming upon this people (my country), for it's selfishness. Sodom was not destroyed becasue of homosexuality:
Eze 16:49-50 Behold, this was the iniquity of thy sister Sodom, pride, fulness of bread, and abundance of idleness was in her and in her daughters, neither did she strengthen the hand of the poor and needy. (50) And they were haughty, and committed abomination before me: therefore I took them away as I saw good.
Last edited by clueless on Thu Sep 14, 2006 4:01 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 12:56 am Post subject: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
This is a thread where I intend to answer any and all questions about my christian faith and peak oil that I can. Also to encourage believers who find themselves caught up in the peak oil web. I will promptly ignore after the second virulent post anyone spewing hatred toward Christianity. That said I will answer every poster directing questions at me at least once. I am a bible believing christian of 19 years and formerly studied to be in the ministry with an evangelical denomination. People facing peak oil are going to need to hear the gospel and the issues raised by peak oil can be used by the Lord to bring people to a saving knowledge of Christ. I do not feel like I own this thread, but I would like to see it develop into something like an internet peak oil chapel. That of course is in the Lord's hands, and He has also left that up to the mods, who could delete the thread, but I doubt they will. A little bit of the Good Word can't hurt in these troubled times.
Rejoice brothers and sisters, your reward is in heaven! _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Thu Apr 17, 2008 1:45 am; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:02 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Very well. A serious question, then.
Let us suppose that a Christian family finds itself in a post-peak environment. Due to reduced food supplies, the die-off has begun in earnest. The neighbors are starving, in a literal and actual sense.
The hypothetical family has supplies, and is surviving nicely.
What do you regard as their optimal course of action?
Alternative scenario.
The aforementioned family is sitting at home, reading books. Two individuals begin attempting to force entry into the house. The family is well armed.
What do you regard as the optimal course of action?
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:33 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Jack wrote:
Very well. A serious question, then.
Let us suppose that a Christian family finds itself in a post-peak environment. Due to reduced food supplies, the die-off has begun in earnest. The neighbors are starving, in a literal and actual sense.
The hypothetical family has supplies, and is surviving nicely.
What do you regard as their optimal course of action?
'Do good to all men especially those of the household of faith' Galatians 6:10
I think you help the neighbors.
Quote:
Alternative scenario.
The aforementioned family is sitting at home, reading books. Two individuals begin attempting to force entry into the house. The family is well armed.
What do you regard as the optimal course of action?
Assuming the miscreants are not immediately terminated, at what point (if any) does the family initiate use of deadly force?
'If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. Here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.' Revelation 13:10
Such as it is that seems to sum it up. I'm not into the whole Jesuits with guns thing, you know the 'I know my Bible all the way from Genocide to Revolutions' perspective popular with certain priests in Latin America in the 50's and 60's.
I believe that the last days of the church on earth will be very directly handled by the Holy Spirit. There will be a persecution, but post-peak is not really an eschatalogical issue. This view comes from a simple reading of the Bible. That does not justify blind consumption though.
BTW nice to hear from you. I had not seen you post for a while. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 2:52 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2748 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 3:50 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.' Revelation 13:10 [/quote]
[quote]
Does this mean that it is ok to kill the home invaders or that the it is ok to be killed by them? Or perhaps whatever the end result is, is ok? _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:00 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
wisconsin_cur wrote:
If anyone is destined for captivity, to captivity he goes; if anyone kills with the sword, with the sword he must be killed. here is the perseverance and the faith of the saints.' Revelation 13:10
Quote:
Does this mean that it is ok to kill the home invaders or that the it is ok to be killed by them? Or perhaps whatever the end result is, is ok?
It means everyone will have to make their choices when/if said situation arises.
However, the death of His children is not something God takes lightly.
'Precious in the sight of the Lord is the death of one of His godly ones.' Psalm 116:15
Jacks' question itself assumes a world in which God is not sovereign. Interestingly though it is probably beliefs about the end times that will make it less likely for many religious christians to take any action whatsoever about climate change or peak oil. The last I heard something like 65% of Americans believe the Lord could return in their lifetime. According to the Bible He has all the answers, so according to many Christians we don't need to get all uptight about such things. I think that is far too casual of an approach to Christian ethics.
I tend to see responsibility as part of it. We should not be trashing things, or acting foolishly regarding such a precious resource as oil and the impacts of how we use it. This is much more in line with what the Bible calls wisdom.
There are a growing number of evangelicals who are taking the environment seriously though. Some of the dominant theology gets in the way of understanding peak oil. A 6000 year old earth and a miracle working God makes it hard to understand that once the oil is gone there won't be anymore. Some even suggest God would just miraculously make more. (?)
I tend to see peak oil as a real issue that is underneath the amazing vision that was given to John so long ago. It is very spooky how close the modern doom scenarios are to some interpretations of Revelation. Seals restrain, insight into a problem, or in the case of the seals in the Book of Revelation they represent earthly occurences that could not happen unless Christ had overcome at Calvary. I think there are many nuances of the Book of Revelation that are still not understood even by Christians. _________________ I return to you now at the turning of the tide.
Last edited by Gandalf_the_White on Fri May 02, 2008 2:57 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: May 10, 2007 Posts: 2748 Location: The Entropisphere
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 4:31 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Quote:
It means everyone will have to make their choices when/if said situation arises.
Jack also asked for the "optimal response" and I am still wondering what that is?
Ok God is soverign, what would he have that family do? God has an opinion about sex, no banging outside of marriage. I would hope he has an opinion about whether or not we should kill someone?
Does Jesus have anything to add on this issue?
Quote:
According to the Bible he has all the answers, so according to many Christians we don't need to get all uptight about such things.
Not get uptight about ethics? I would think that orthopraxy should be a very important issue, more important than much of anything?
Quote:
Why do you call me, 'Lord, Lord,' and do not do what I say?
-Jesus _________________ "Against stupidity the gods themselves contend in vain."
-Friedrich von Schiller
"What I try, may not work. It may be ineffective. It might even turn out in the pages of history to be the exact wrong thing to do, but I'm going to try to do what I c
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:27 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
I believe in hard times Christianity obligates me to help others to the best of my ability. However it does not obligate me to take food out of the mouthes of my children to help others who bught big screen TVs and refused to prepare, and certianly does not obligate me to let others rob my family.
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 6:47 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf_the_White wrote:
Jacks' question itself assumes a world in which God is not sovereign.
But is that really the case? As I recall, the old testament included several instances where bad things happened to large numbers of people. Sodom and Gomorrah come to mind; and one need not be a vice cop to note that our society has certain "alternative lifestyles". And then there is the time Israel spent in captivity in Egypt. For that matter, there is the little matter of seven years of famine in Egypt. So I see no reason that bad things could not, once again, happen to large numbers of people.
And then...a bit of whimsy. I seem to remember something to the effect that the next time the Earth was destroyed it would be with fire. Most interpretations have some gigantic, supernatural event that wipes the slate clean. But what if "destroyed by fire" really means destroyed by the carbon emissions resulting from a great many fires? Including the ones at the power station that generates electricity for my computer. Including my car. Including all the fire-based energy generation of our society.
One comes also to the issue of "...it those days had not been cut short, all flesh would have perished." (Correct?) So - could that mean that, without a breakdown in the existing growth paradigm, we would transform the planet into something not suitable for life? _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: Aug 11, 2005 Posts: 666 Location: Eastern NC
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:14 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Gandalf
I think many Christians will do much better than the masses during the "little" downturn ahead. Many churchs have a strong sense of community, the desire to help at least others in the faith and possibly others. There are many older folks in the churchs who will still have knowledge of such things as gardening, canning, etc. and young people who at least have some respect for the older folks and are willing to learn. There is little to none of that in the general public. Generally in hard times church numbers swell.
Ministry to others seldom means just handing them food. It means teaching them skills to survive
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 8:36 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
Fishman: I agree 100%....in the long run traditional family/community values is the best 'survival tool' one can have and those values are all founded upon scripture.
Joined: Oct 03, 2004 Posts: 516 Location: Washington State
Posted: Thu Apr 17, 2008 9:18 am Post subject: Re: Christian Perspectives on Peak Oil
OK, here is one (multifaceted) for you.
Is freedom a God given right.
If so,
1) does a Christian have an obligation to bear arms to defend ones freedom.
2) Is one (individually or collectively) who takes or restricts freedom an enemy of God.
Think about Knox and his message and its effect on his time. _________________ This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
Highlander 2007
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