Joined: Oct 04, 2007 Posts: 213 Location: North-East USA
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 3:56 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
Ludi wrote:
I suppose warfare might be the most costly and profitable (for a few)method of reducing population, if that's what you want to do.
Disease would be much more efficient.
did you know Ludi means "people" in Russian
didnt notice it until now _________________ Tyler_JC:
"I love how every conversation on this website, given enough time, will turn into a discussion of cannibalism."
““Life is on the wire…the rest is just waiting””
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12514 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 4:47 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
anarky321 wrote:
iquickly resort to violence,
Sources? Or is it a belief?
I'm not saying it's wrong for you to have this belief, just, I would be interested in evidence that folks used their limited (by caloric intake) energy to bash each other constantly. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12514 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:02 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
anarky321 wrote:
(polygamy + highly skewed male/female ratio), no male-male competition for mates (polygamy + captive females from other tribes), high numbers of males for warfare, small numbers of females are a natural form of birth control (one woman can only squeeze one, maybe 2 out in a year)
I think you might be talking about "polyandry" ( multiple males to each female).....?
Joined: Dec 25, 2005 Posts: 576 Location: Hillsboro, West Virginia
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 8:27 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
anarky321 wrote:
any tribal abortion recipes you care to share?
I heard they eat 'em in China. Maybe they're on the menu at the elite diners in the big cities. Big ones on a platter. Small ones in your soup. They regard them as healthful. But then they also eat tiger penises as a traditional native viagra substitute.
Joined: Oct 04, 2007 Posts: 213 Location: North-East USA
Posted: Thu Mar 27, 2008 10:50 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
Ludi wrote:
I think you might be talking about "polyandry" ( multiple males to each female).....?
yes, im talking about sexual relations not marriage
not even specifically intercourse, just anything that is in the sphere of sexual interaction that serves as a bond between two humans (read the 'sexual interaction' section under Bonobo on Wiki for a better idea of what i mean)
monogamy is by nature divisive; it does not unite a tribe but seeds envy, desire and anger; people spend their time plotting how to take someone's mate or worse - see where im going with this? inefficient use of time and energy
and what have we ended up with today? we live in a largely monogamous society (at least officially), where a girl is slutty for having sexual relations with tons of guys (or at the extreme end a prostitute), but what we've erected is a system of signaling, by forcing people to choose ONE mate to be with people are desperately searching for the 'perfect' mate, some waiting years and years for one (ridiculous); most people intensely like more than one person they know, and forcing people to make a choice like that is always a compromise, and one that seriously modifies the way our society is structured
as for signaling, we have extreme spending on trendy clothes, expensive cars, big houses with decorated baths, jewelery etc etc. these are signaling items, designed to attract a mate, but would be largely unnecessary in a free mating system; what im saying is we use posturing and signaling with items to an extreme sense because of our rigid monogamous framework; monogamy also leads to disappointment because there is no 'perfect' partner and being forced to spend years (sometimes decades) with the same mate takes its toll on a person emotionally (there are exceptions no doubt, but the majority of our species is NOT built for monogamy);
its just one more thing humans came up with to restrict ourselves and then we wonder why life is so hard, boring and miserable
polygyny/polyandry (thanks ludi) works to bond a tribe together, there are no limitations between people, it serves to create a very very strongly bonded group of people
many would argue (myself including) that sexual relations in humans are primarily a social bonding tool, and not reproduction related, which is why a woman's ovulation period is hidden from males; take two strangers and have them make out for 10 minutes and they will be much much 'closer' in social terms; its a bonding mechanism (probably why we kiss to begin with); the incentive is sexual attraction but the goal (in nature's terms) is bonding, with reproduction as a secondary goal
we are alot like the chimps in this sense, only we've erected this artificial barriers to our own human nature and sign our lives away to monogamous relationships (which for most people end in misery and disaster, unless they're doing someone else on the side then its more bearable)
(wow thats alot of abortion plants; although i would have to question the health effects of something that causes abortion in a female) _________________ Tyler_JC:
"I love how every conversation on this website, given enough time, will turn into a discussion of cannibalism."
““Life is on the wire…the rest is just waiting””
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 7:29 am Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
Quote:
many would argue (myself including) that sexual relations in humans are primarily a social bonding tool, and not reproduction related, which is why a woman's ovulation period is hidden from males
Of course science (as well as common sense) might object to some of those conclusions.
Quote:
Nov. 7, 2007 -- Women are most attracted to sex with masculine, high-risk men during ovulation, when they are most likely to get pregnant, a Kinsey Institute study suggests.
Heather Rupp, PhD, a research fellow at the Kinsey Institute, studied 12 single heterosexual women aged 23 to 28. While hooked up to an fMRI machine that detects activity in different parts of the brain, the women looked at 256 photos of male faces.
Using a computer morphing program, researchers altered the photos to make the male faces look more or less masculine. The women were also given sexual risk information on the men that included their number of sexual partners and their typical condom-use patterns.
As someone who has enjoyed monogamy for over a decade now I also know that my spouse is more... receptive at some times rather than others and owing to the fact that we live in close proximity I (like humans all across history) know when the monthly visitor comes. One does not need a calender or an 8th grade health class to start to get the idea, hey its been about so many days after the monthly visitor that she might be "receptive."
Of course while we are looking at the issue of free sex and community perhaps we should do some comparisons and contrasts.
Lets ask some questions:
Where is community strongest, the rigid Amish community or the free sex zones of inner city America or the suburbs or anywhere else?
What about the community building of monogamy. I have gotten lots of help from in-laws. Even cousin-in laws. But then again we believe that we are stuck with one another and a favor for me is a favor for she-cur. In the same way there are a bunch of "rival" males out there that I help because they are an extension of my cousins... even those extensions of my cousins that I do not like.
What is the impact of jealousy? One only needs to read a bit of Genesis to see that polygamy is not all that it is cracked up to be. I'm hard pressed to think of any real life examples of polyandry (I know their are some I'm just not familar with those tribes).
I know two "open relationship couples" and I can always tell when someone is out using that "open option." The other person is impossible to work with.
I guess monogamy, like democracy, is an imperfect solution to a problem but it is better than all of the other options. Romanticism for what we have never experienced is the worst kind of threat to what is good in what we have, it is called fantasy. _________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
I also read an article about Kalahari Bushman (San) women having multiple lovers (but not multiple husbands). Can't find the link right now. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Joined: Dec 27, 2004 Posts: 12514 Location: zombie horde wonderland
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 10:54 am Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
anarky321 wrote:
i would have to question the health effects of something that causes abortion in a female)
An early abortion may be safer to some extent than pregnancy and childbirth. But yes, many of these plants are considered dangerous. _________________ No original ideas are contained in this post.
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:18 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
Jenab6 wrote:
(...)
Once the die-off has run its course, whichever humans remain will go back to tribal skirmishes for the reasons you and others have mentioned, with swords if they have them, with clubs if they don't have swords.
I honestly prefer that we go extinct if we're just going to survive instead of evolving to higher states of conciousness. A virus that kill all of us in less than a month; I'm surprised there's no disease that takes advantage of such a large and genetically homogeneous human population. _________________ anagami.net
Joined: Oct 04, 2007 Posts: 213 Location: North-East USA
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:22 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
dont worry, people that have a problem with 'just surviving' will be the first to go
i for one like my current level of conciousness just fine _________________ Tyler_JC:
"I love how every conversation on this website, given enough time, will turn into a discussion of cannibalism."
““Life is on the wire…the rest is just waiting””
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:28 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
anarky321 wrote:
Ludi wrote:
I think you might be talking about "polyandry" ( multiple males to each female).....?
yes, im talking about sexual relations not marriage
not even specifically intercourse, just anything that is in the sphere of sexual interaction that serves as a bond between two humans (read the 'sexual interaction' section under Bonobo on Wiki for a better idea of what i mean)
monogamy is by nature divisive; it does not unite a tribe but seeds envy, desire and anger; people spend their time plotting how to take someone's mate or worse - see where im going with this? inefficient use of time and energy
and what have we ended up with today? we live in a largely monogamous society (at least officially), where a girl is slutty for having sexual relations with tons of guys (or at the extreme end a prostitute), but what we've erected is a system of signaling, by forcing people to choose ONE mate to be with people are desperately searching for the 'perfect' mate, some waiting years and years for one (ridiculous); most people intensely like more than one person they know, and forcing people to make a choice like that is always a compromise, and one that seriously modifies the way our society is structured
as for signaling, we have extreme spending on trendy clothes, expensive cars, big houses with decorated baths, jewelery etc etc. these are signaling items, designed to attract a mate, but would be largely unnecessary in a free mating system; what im saying is we use posturing and signaling with items to an extreme sense because of our rigid monogamous framework; monogamy also leads to disappointment because there is no 'perfect' partner and being forced to spend years (sometimes decades) with the same mate takes its toll on a person emotionally (there are exceptions no doubt, but the majority of our species is NOT built for monogamy);
its just one more thing humans came up with to restrict ourselves and then we wonder why life is so hard, boring and miserable
polygyny/polyandry (thanks ludi) works to bond a tribe together, there are no limitations between people, it serves to create a very very strongly bonded group of people
many would argue (myself including) that sexual relations in humans are primarily a social bonding tool, and not reproduction related, which is why a woman's ovulation period is hidden from males; take two strangers and have them make out for 10 minutes and they will be much much 'closer' in social terms; its a bonding mechanism (probably why we kiss to begin with); the incentive is sexual attraction but the goal (in nature's terms) is bonding, with reproduction as a secondary goal
we are alot like the chimps in this sense, only we've erected this artificial barriers to our own human nature and sign our lives away to monogamous relationships (which for most people end in misery and disaster, unless they're doing someone else on the side then its more bearable)
(wow thats alot of abortion plants; although i would have to question the health effects of something that causes abortion in a female)
Are you proposing orgies? Nah, I think the best type of sexual relationships will be just one mate at a time, probably end as friends, and then search for another one... it will also be better that hugs between people be much more common... the current paradigm is farking insane: you can mate just with one person AND be Fark all the time AND be farking all the time, but with just 1 person for the rest of your life or with yourself AND disregard frienships because being with "the one" is "more important" AND huging or kissing between friends is forbidden... but I don't know how to propose a better paradigm of sexual behaviour...
Edit: hmm, actually what may work is freely kissing (in lips) and hugging friends that are ok with it (respecting both personal sexual preferences of course) but have just 1 farking mate at a time. _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Fri Mar 28, 2008 12:41 pm Post subject: Re: The Freedom to Breed
I find monogamy suits me just find, satisfying personally (we do remember that the line about the grass being greener is just a line?) and that it is a beneficial way to build up a farm when one couple partner in the task for a long term work in the same direction (a much magnified version of the who gets the dog problem).
Perhaps in an "modern" urban environment we as individuals can embrace serial relations as an alternative. But when you have to get something done as a team (raise children or crops) the idea of having to switch out for a new model over a couple of years does not sound like fun. It sounds like a complication (ie more work)
After 10 years the bride and I understand each other... there is no way I would choose to do that over again.
Children like stability, I have seen no evidence that serial partners is good for children.
Or have we fallen for the fallacy that the only thing that matters is the expansion of our own sexual experiences/adventures. If there were no other reason, I would be happy with one partner if it would help my children grow into stable members of society. Heck, I'd commit myself to celibacy if that were the cost.
Despite all of that, if we can get to,
Quote:
but I don't know how to propose a better paradigm of sexual behaviour.
I'll take it.
_________________ "Mit der Dummheit kaempfen Goetter selbst vergebens" -Friedrich von Schiller
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