Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 289 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Mon Mar 03, 2008 10:39 pm Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
Mr. Bill said:
Quote:
They say we are only lucky to be born in the developed world through the accident of birth. That seems like a strange argument to me? We are not accidents of birth. Our parents and their parents made conscious decisions to have children, and in some cases where to have children or not to have them. I do not believe that God randomly goes around distributing little souls here or there based on geography? It is largely biological self-determinism. But I may be wrong? ; - )
OK, its late and I gotta get up at 5:00am but here goes a quickie.
Read Guns, Germs & Steel by Jarred Diamond if you have not already. I think that his argument is pretty much that YES we are here by accident - if you take the WE to be Caucasians. I do detect a bit of a racial tone to some of your writing, but maybe I'm wrong. Just checking.
That does not mean that we should not try to make sure me and mine survive. It's just that sometimes luck trumps planning.
As Napoleon is reported to have said:
I'd rather have a lucky General that a good one.
And finally here is the link to the NY Times article The Moral Instinct.
http://jedyoong.wordpress.com/2008/01/14/ny-times-the-moral-instinct/ _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 12:08 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
there's a samurai poem that says something like:
"I have no morality, I make survival my morality".
So yes, as long as one can survive too then sure. What I'm not going to do WTSHTF is to kill others for oil and other luxouries (sp?). _________________ anagami.net
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 2:53 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
Newfie wrote:
Quote:
Read Guns, Germs & Steel by Jarred Diamond if you have not already. I think that his argument is pretty much that YES we are here by accident - if you take the WE to be Caucasians. I do detect a bit of a racial tone to some of your writing, but maybe I'm wrong. Just checking.
Yes, I have read Jarred Diamond's books as well as the Wealth and Poverty of Nations by David Landes. As individuals we may be lucky or unlucky, but those books make it patently clear that History is no accident.
As far as racial over-tones you're well off-base on that one. I have never used the term Caucasian ever. I am just not a history revisionist. I do not blame the winners. I am not politically correct. I can like people, but dislike their government's politics and policies. I can like people, but have other beliefs than them. I am not a western apologist. Neither do I believe that the west has any inherent right to anything more than anyone else. I am not an armchair liberal. Other than humanitarian disaster relief I believe in trade not aid. I believe that sovereign nations have first and foremost an obligation to their own citizens. They cannot outsource that responsibility to the west, to the UN or to multinational corporations.
But it has nothing to do with race or religion. I choose to work in emerging markets because I truly enjoy diversity!
I do, however, know some good Newfie jokes though! ; - )
Quote:
That does not mean that we should not try to make sure me and mine survive. It's just that sometimes luck trumps planning.
Or as Jack Nicklaus once said, in response to a question about a lucky put, 'The harder I train, the luckier I seem to get." _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 3:04 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
Heineken wrote:
In terms of the morality issue, there is a critical difference between surviving and thriving. "Thriving" suggests some element of excess beyond what is necessary to live. The question then arises, Whence derives that extra margin, that high living? Does the protagonist create it on his own (which would generally be regarded as good, or at least OK), or get it by damaging or robbing someone else (or something else, like Mother Nature) either directly or indirectly (which would generally be regarded as bad)?
I think that you've delineated the extent of the moral dimension pretty well there, Heineken. Beyond this, I'm not sure where the morality lies. The rest is really good fortune and being in the right place at the right time, which shouldn't provoke guilt, although it sometimes does, as in "survivor guilt". This also operates across the generations, too, as we bequeath a progressively less rich and diverse planet to our children. _________________ "Who knows what the Second Law of Thermodynamics will be like in a hundred years?" - Economist speaking during planning for World Population Conference in early 1970s
Joined: Sep 14, 2004 Posts: 6468 Location: Rural Virginia
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
If you have more than you really need, you should give at least some of it back. Make a donation. Plant some trees. Volunteer. Whatever. It may not change anything (as Lovelock would point out), but it's moral. _________________ "Actually, humans died out long ago."
---Abused, abandoned hunting dog
"Things have entered a stage where the only change that is possible is for things to get worse."
---Me and my brother
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 7:57 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
MrBill wrote:
I prefer Budhist to Hindu custom. The Caste System may be an efficient division of labor by eliminating competition between castes, but I find it wholly unacceptable that some are born into lower castes and cannot progress 'in this life'!
Quote:
It should be noted, however, that Krishna does not propose that the physical world must be forgotten or neglected. Indeed, it is quite the opposite: one's life on earth must be lived in accordance with greater laws and truths, one must embrace one's temporal duties whilst remaining mindful of a more timeless reality, acting for the sake of action without consideration for the results thereof. Such a life would naturally lead towards stability, happiness and ultimately, enlightenment.
Which still does not answer the question of whether it is right to thrive while others are struggling to survive other than to suggest they may get their reward in another life? Sorry, not buying it! ; - )
First about the caste system, it is by one's work and action, not by his birth. The caste system as it is now is perverted.
Even in the Western countries you have a type of caste system, the buisnessmen have replaced the kings as administrators, the Brahman priests have been replaced by scientists. As much as the communists like to say it is a classless system, there are the leaders on one level (communist party) and then the workers. Also within that you have blackmarket buisnessmen. In the Vedic system the Brahmans guided the kings because they were materially renownced so their decisions weren't based on making money but were fair for everyone including the animals and the environment. Just because you may be smarter than others does not mean that you should exploit them, it means you should run things so that everyone is taken care of.
As for the second part of your question, conciousness is a symptom of the soul. The soul is eternal, the body is temporary. This material manifestation is temporary. So everyone under the illusion of the material nature is suffering to some degree. The real problems of life are birth, death, disease and old age. How to get out of this cycle of birth and death is the real problem. So if you can help people realize their soul and God, that is the highest charity work.
Posted: Tue Mar 04, 2008 8:04 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
I think it's moral for us to survive. We are not stressing the planet much. Our family is carbon neutral, and we are making the community work. You want people like us to survive.
That doesn't mean it will happen. _________________ Deep in the mud and slime of things, even there, something sings.
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 2:35 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
Manu, I would be a very benevolent dictator. Trust me? ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: Nov 15, 2007 Posts: 289 Location: US East Coast
Posted: Wed Mar 05, 2008 9:08 pm Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
Mr. Bill,
it is interesting but we have both read the same book and come to different conclusions. In my book Diamond was pretty clear that the triumph of Western culture over indigenous cultures was a matter of luck and not choice. I have not read the Landes book but it is now on my list.
I agree that as individuals we may be lucky or unlucky but that is a different matter. Actually there has been some interesting research on this point as well.
Thank you for clarifying your other opinions.
I found this thread interesting and it helped me clarify, or perhaps harden, some of my own opinions. I alway find writing out my opinions helps more than talking them through. In another thread they were trying to get people to bash Ayn Rand. I too believe that we often, if not always, act in selfish motivations, though they are often hidden even from ourselves. So, back to your first post, yes it is moral to thrive while others struggle. However, it should be done tastefully.
As to the Newfie jokes, well you clearly have me there. My Wife once got a book of jokes titled "Non Campus Mentus." It was hilarious. Full of anecdotes about things dumb college students said. Then I read the forward, it was largely collected at Memorial University, St. Johns. Sigh.................. _________________ When going through hell, keep going! Churchill
Nothing is ever lost by courtesy. It is the the cheapest of pleasures, costs nothing, and conveys much. E Wiman
I know there’s no solution, so I just enjoy what’s here and I enjoy the journey G Carlin
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 3:51 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
I read Ayn Rand's Atlas Shrugged, and her brand of objective epistemology years ago. Another poster lambasted me for talking about this once before.
Actually, my take away from her book was not 'greed is good', but that we are responsible for our own actions. But I thought her description of greedy self-interests grabbing at an ever smaller economic pie were right on the mark. She could have been the original post peak oil resource depletion economist! ; - )
Another good book if you are making a list is Salt, A World History by Mark Kurlansky. Fascinating stuff. _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 3:44 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
manu wrote:
MrBill wrote:
Manu, I would be a very benevolent dictator. Trust me? ; - )
Maybe we will find out. Mr. Bill becomes King of Cyprus.
Nah, we just got a new communist government. This place is beyond hope I am affraid? ; - ) _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
Joined: May 27, 2007 Posts: 1473 Location: The Post Peak Oil Historian
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 4:03 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
Mr. Bill,
I'm an Ayn Rand fan myself. One book you might find interesting is The Ominous Parallels by Leonard Peikoff It is prefaced and recommended by Ayn Rand herself. In her introduction, she says, "If you do not wish to be a victim of today's philosophical bankruptcy, I recommend 'The Ominous Parallels' as protection and ammunition. It will protect you from supporting, unwittingly, the ideas that are destroying you and the world. It will bring order into the chaos of today's events - and show you simultaneously the enormity of the battle and the contemptible smallness of the enemy. ... It's so wonderful to see a great, new, crucial achievement which is not mine!" _________________ In a time of universal deceit, telling the truth is a revolutionary act. - George Orwell
Posted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 9:49 am Post subject: Re: is it moral to survive?
It takes courage to be a fiscal conservative and a moral liberal when there are indeed calls from every quarter to eliminate poverty and make everyone equal as if it was a simple as that and entailed no costs. It takes no intellect or courage to simply throw money at the symptoms of every problem without solving the underlying causes however politically or culturally sensitive. Especially when it is other people's money! _________________ The organized state is a wonderful invention whereby everyone can live at someone else's expense.
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