Is there any payback for a snow blower?

Denny

I noticed in shovelling my drive today, that my neighbor using a snow thrower finished his in about 25 minutes, vs. 40 for me, though we started at the same time. But, my neighbor also had to do some shoveling and it took some time to fill the snow blower with gas.

We had a moderate snowfall to clear, but I bet if multiplied by 16 that would be about the amount of time spend over the season clearing snow. So, maybe four hours of saved time. But, the snow blower will take some maintenance, and maybe one trip for gas and maybe a repair part every second year.

I can't see why anybody would buy a snow blower for that little saving. I guess I'd feel differently, if clearing snow was twice a week thing all winter, and if we got heavier snow falls..

Do any of you with snow blowers compare the cost and the net benefits from past experience?

TWilliam · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Nov 28, 2004 Posts: 1750

I don't have a snowblower, as I presently live in an area that rarely sees any snowfall, and accumulation is even rarer.

That said, I'd say it very much depends on what your annual snowfall is like as to whether or not it's worth the expense. If you live someplace that sees multiple heavy snows in a season that require a large amount of shoveling, then if nothing else a snowblower is a great back saver.

If, however, you live in an area that might only see say two or three substantial snowfalls in a season, then it's probably cheaper to hire someone with a pickup truck and plow to do a 1-time clearing (assuming there's someone around who has one).
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"It means buckle your seatbelt, Dorothy, because Kansas? Is goin' bye-bye... "

MarkJames · Tar Sands Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 63

I live in the Adirondack region of Upstate New York. Most people with large driveways, large parking areas or long driveways use a plow truck, quad with plow and/or a snowblower unless they've got a strong back and lots of time. Sometimes we plow and snowblow a few times per day. Of course the county plow trucks often leave you a nice high scraper bank at the end of your driveway as soon as you're finished. As the scraper banks increase in size over the season, it gets harder to shovel snow as well.

Not many people shovel these days. Years ago kids would be knocking on you door after it snowed looking to make some money shoveling.

waldo · Tar Sands Joined: Dec 22, 2007 Posts: 44

I have a 300 foot driveway and absolutely love my self-propelled snowblower. That's a full day job without it that I can do with the snowblower with relative ease in an hour.

This is something I've spent some time thinking about: energy depletion will include human energy depletion, as caloric input will be limited as well. I feel having such small engine devices (perhaps we won't need to remove snow) as, of course, chainsaws, but also a small tractor for some activities requiring some "muscle" and a rototiller (for breaking new ground; I've read that constant use disrupts the soil and believe it) are going to be necessary to alleviate my personal human energy requirement. They don't use very much fuel and are easy to maintain. Small engine mechanics are going to be in big demand in the future I think.

nocar · Intermediate Crude Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 685

The need for a snow blower goes together with a suburban lifestyle and a house reached by a car. If all you need is footpath to the street (communal, done by your city) leading to your bus- or train stop, you quite likely do not need a snow-blower.

Or you might prefer to do some cross country skiing - the way to move on top of snow!

nocar

gg3

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Sorry, Nocar, doesn't work, even minus cars and suburbs. Older folks and people with disabilities can't ski, and you need a smooth clear surface for a wheelchair. Bicycles will work in snow but ice underneath is a killer-diller. In any city or town, even if you convert entirely to horse-drawn sleighs as buses, you still need clear sidewalks. And let's not forget about ambulances and fire engines, which still need clear roads to operate.

Shoveling snow is a major cause of fatal heart attacks in the winter. Even for people who are in good shape.

There are electric snow blowers, cost is about $250 for a decent one that'll clear up to 8 - 12" accumulations. You also need a long power cable to get to an indoor outlet, typically in the garage (use a heavy contractor-grade extension cord, 100' length, and if need be you can connect multiple lengths by wrapping the plugs/sockets with waterproof electrical tape backed up by a decent layer of duct tape).

They don't have power to the wheels, but all you have to do is push, which isn't so bad. Keep the long cord wrapped on a cord reel or a hose reel, and reel it out as needed.

IMHO a snow blower is an acceptable use of energy because the motor is doing work that's potentially hazardous to do manually, and clearing walkways and driveways is a necessity (as per the first paragraph).

The thing to get rid of is the powered lawn mower, which can be replaced by a push model easily.

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In a purely horse-based road transportation system, there are horse-drawn plows and horse-drawn rotary brooms. Usually these have to be used every 6 to 12 inches of accumulation, which means a need for a constant supply of horses to stay on-duty continually during a long or heavy snow. In a serious blizzard it would be acceptable to wait until it's over and then roll the heavy equipment, a rotary plow run on biodiesel, used specifically for times when the snow is beyond the capacity of horse-drawn equipment.

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The way to get population down to a sustainable level isn't to let people die when ambulances or fire engines can't get through the snow, or drop dead from snow shoveling. The way to get population down, is to ration babies.

FoolYap

FoolYap

TWilliam · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Nov 28, 2004 Posts: 1750

nocar · Intermediate Crude Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 685

gg3,

I figured this thread was about individually (or household-) owned snowblowers, not snow removal by ciities and communities. It seems to me that home owners usually need their snowblower to get their car out, not for any other reason. If you do not have a car, all you need to shovel is narrow foot path.

Snowblowers are one more thing that makes car ownership stimulating more and more matter and energy use.

Snow and slippery ice is an extra problem when getting around for people who are not in shape - I agree. But I do not think that an individually owned snowblower for one's driveway is the best solution very often - unless you rely on car mobility anyway.

nocar

Mahmoud

gg3

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Re. FoolYap: Of course get rid of the lawn! Consider this:

A private homeowners' association, having a bizarre form of legal dominion over homes that are on public rights-of-way, can force every household to grow and harvest weekly an ornamental crop that requires large inputs of water and energy. That's f---ing insane.

Yes, get rid of lawns! However for those who must have them for whatever reason, use a push mower. There is never an excuse to have a lawn big enough that it requires a riding tractor mower unless you conduct team sports in your yard that require a playing field (as in, no one does that anyway but we'll make the exception if a case comes up!).

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Re. TWilliam: The species survived since forever-ago without a lot of things including the knowledge that washing one's hands after wiping one's bottom is a good idea before eating a meal. And the species survived times when most of its members were covered with lice and even fleas. So? The species could survive a nuclear war too; all it takes is one viable breeding colony.

The point is to reduce preventable deaths and preventable births in equal number, thereby resulting in longer lifespan and higher quality of life.

Or if not, I'll believe you when you stop bathing.

Though, I agree about dumping the useless eaters. Let's see, how many people here work at jobs that don't produce tangible goods or essential services?

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Hi Nocar: You'll be pleased that a close friend of mine who is an eco-industrial genius has ditched his gas powered vehicle and is building himself a 3-wheel electric motorcycle.

Anyway. Narrow path? No, wide enough for a wheelchair or a stretcher with a medic on each side. That should also be sufficient for firefighters with hoses.

Looks like you missed my point about shoveling snow and heart attacks. I'll believe you when you wash all your clothes by hand, which is merely inconvenient and a much less strenuous activity than shoveling heavy wet snow. Motors are legitmate where manual effort would be excessive or hazardous.

Snow blowers don't stimulate car ownership. Ever been to New York City? Shopkeepers hire people with snow blowers to go down an entire block and clear snow from the sidewalk. Few people in NYC own private cars. QED...

Individual snow blowers are probably excessive in most places, where one machine is sufficient for a neighborhood. However, as with any other tools or equipment, it needs to be under the control and responsibility of one or two people who will use and maintain it properly so as to minimize the need for repairs (wasted material & energy due to carelessness).

Humans are going to have to learn to take care of their tools because eventually the cost of repair parts or replacements will go through the roof.

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Re. Mahmoud: Good point about taking time & dawdling. Speed kills. People rush too much, almost all of which is dictated one way or another by money. We have to stop letting money dictate every detail of our lives. Envision a primitive culture that keeps pet reptiles and asks them (the reptiles) for permission for anything they (the humans) want to do. Reptiles know nothing of mammalian ways except to prey on rodents. Now substitute dollars for the reptiles. Bingo!

Good point about taking the bus when it snows. Which makes it feasible to take the bus at other times as well. In some parts of Europe it used to be the case that buses were also equipped with plows so they could clear their own path as they went on their routes. In the US, refuse trucks are often equipped with plows but seldom do both duties at the same time for logistical reasons.

Municipal engineering in the post-petroleum age is going to be interesting.....

MarkJames · Tar Sands Joined: Dec 25, 2007 Posts: 63

People without cars still snowblow their driveways so they have access to side/rear entrances, basement access hatches/doors, garages, storage sheds, electric meters, fuel oil/kerosene fill pipes, propane tanks etc. They also clear the driveways so that guests, service people, health care workers and delivery people have a place to park during winter parking bans and snow emergencies.

Some of our fuel and heating customers don't drive, so they don't clear their driveways. Makes it tough to do service, or deliver fuel when there's nowhere to park, or when you have to climb over a huge scraper bank and drag over a 100 feet of hose through deep snow.

TWilliam · Light Sweet Crude Joined: Nov 28, 2004 Posts: 1750

nocar · Intermediate Crude Joined: Nov 05, 2004 Posts: 685

It is interesting that even on this board, people react strongly whenever the problematic wastefulness of the car traffic system is pointed out.

Other things being equal, if you do not need to clear your driveway for your car, you need to remove less snow. Nine out of ten times I see a snowblower in action, here in my wealthy Stockholm suburb, it is the car driveway they are clearing. For the other places you need to reach in your yard, like your trash can, you do not need such a wide clearance. - If you clear your driveway for guests to park, as MarkJames says, you still do it because of car-ownership, except for other people's cars.

MarkJames, I can sympathize with your being inconvenienced by non-car-owner not clearing their driveway. But how often do you have to deliver heating fuel in a winter? When we depended on oilheating, we usually only needed one filling each winter (the tank held 3 cubic meters) And the tank was filled more or less from the footpath anyway. Seems like the set-up you are describing did not take a winter snow-cover into account when it was designed.

The car traffic system, compared to bus-, or even more a railroad-, traffic system, demands much more surface area for road space and parking. I did not say that snowblowers encourage car-ownership, I said car-ownership (basic to the whole car traffic system) encourages ownership of snowblowers.

If we look up from individual houses and their yards and look at the whole traffic system, obviously a four-lane road needs more snow-removal than a two-lane road, and more or bigger snowmoving equipment. Bigger roads and longer distances traveled means more energy use for snow removal.

There are so many things that makes the car-traffic system an energy hog. In a PO scenario, it will have to shrink. Hopefully though, we can retain some cars for people who have serious trouble walking. If the car traffic system shrank to the point that most cars only transported people needing wheelchairs, I would not complain about all the cars.

nocar