Technology dependant people...

seahorse · Expert Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2081 Location: Arkansas

Pup,

You're wrong. What you are saying, or showing, but afraid to admit, is your prejudice. The people you refer to are Mexicans, not an army. But I'm not afraid of a mass of Mexicans or blacks, whatever. Millions of poor don't constitute an "army" as you call them. They constitute a poor hungry rabble, and poor hungry rabbles have never proved a match for trained armies. They weren't a match against mounted knights, they weren't a match against the British empire, and they aren't a match in Iraq, where a mere 150,000 soldiers can take over a country of over 30 million. So, the rabble of five million are not match for the trained well equipped American military of 2 million, if the American military ever seeks to enforce martial law. That's what I'm afraid of, a move to a dictatorship. I'm not afraid of these poor Mexicans that go to school with my kids, and shop where I shop.

Don't worry about the big tough strong Mexicans, you need worry about the few fat ass eating UAV flying American teenagers. You don't have to be in good shape to drive an M1 tank, and there's nothing in your personal arsenal that can dent the M1 tank driven by that fat 18 year old punk you so dislike, and nothing in your arsenal that can shoot down an Apache gunship being flown by some soft bellied pilot. Peak oil doesn't mean that the rich and well to-do won't have access to technology, there will always be some form of government, some form of control, and it will have the technology, the power, and they'll always be able to find someone to drive the tanks and fly the helicopters. That's who you have to worry about, not the Mexicans.

Ayoob_Reloaded · Heavy Crude Joined: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 383

Wow, seahorse, for the first time I disagree with you. The hungry Ostrogoth rabble sacked Rome and were literally the beginning of the end of the Roman Empire.

After fleeing the Huns into the waiting arms of the Romans, the Ostrogoths were stuck in a field with no way of sustaining themselves. Starving, they sold their own children into slavery for food. Supposedly, many of them figured that at least their children would have food and wouldn't literally starve to death right in front of their eyes.

When it became clear that they would starve where they stood, the weak and weary Ostrogoths popped a cap on that bottle of OstroWhoopAss and took out their Roman guards. They then proceeded to head from town to town, sacking and raping and burning everything in their path. They made Rome at one point and stripped the spinnas right off that Caddy.

It has happened in the past.

Don't kid yourself.

seahorse · Expert Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2081 Location: Arkansas

Ayoob,

You are right, there are examples of rabbles overcoming more technically advanced societies, but the Romans and their competetors were a lot closer technologically than the Iraqui army and the U.S. Army, and that's why such a small American force so quickly dominated and took over such a large country and overwhelmingly superior force, at least in numbers. I think the example you cite is correct, but only happens when the numbers are able to overcome the technological advancement. There is only so many people you can kill with a sword at one time, but a cruise missile can kill hundreds.

As time has passed, and technology has increased, the ability of numbers to over power military technology has become harder and harder to do, and in fact, today, I don't think it is possible. For example, even millions of people can't overcome a nuke - they wouldn't even see it coming. If there was no constraint built into our system of government to use a nuke, there is nothing millions of people without a nuke can do.

Even though a nuke is an extreme example, it is only extreme by today's standards, bc we still live in a democracy, we don't think Bush or any other president would use them. But, the problem is, using a nuke is the president's decision, its discretionary, and that's scary.

However, even putting nukes aside, the same level of control over the rabble can be easily gained even without a nuke. Sadam Hussein and other dictators, Stalin and Hitler, could control and kill millions of people simply with tanks and machineguns. Without any moral restraint, even a tanks and machineguns easily kill thousands. An M1 tank simply can't be destroyed but by five million mexicans with swords or even guns, you need a tank, and another M1 tank or equivalent with the right type of round.

The Romans didn't have M1 Tanks, helicopters or or Nukes. If the Romans had had a nuke, they would still rule the day. America could easily, and literally, wipe out Iraq right now and take all the oil. The only thing that stops America from abusing its technological edge and simply taking what it wants is some form of moral restraint flowing from the fact that we are still a democracy, plus the fact that a few other countries have nukes.

So, in the end, what I fear is the unrestrained use of our WMD by an out of control leader. I'm afraid that for whatever reason none of our presidents has exercised the discretion to fire a nuke, that reason may one day go away. So, I'm not afraid of the Mexicans or the rabble of the other poor. I fear that someday our government will no longer be constrained morally from unleashing its ability to literally wipe out any enemy, foriegn or domestic, with its horrible WMD that no rabble can possibly defend against. Hitler would have used nukes if he had them, and I'm afraid that under the right circumstances, or the wrong circumstances, whoever is in power in America might do the same (or any of the other countries possessing them).

I can't think of anytime in history when so few people, had such powerful weapons at their disposal, weapons which can literally wipe out billions of people in just minutes. And, its so easy to do. Our great leaders today no longer have to lead from the front and carry a sword like Hannibal or Alexander the Great, all they have to do is push a button from some dark room in some hidden bunker. There is no moral courage involved, no potential for self sacrifice, all they have to do is push a button and wipe out Mexico if they want. We no longer have guys like Hannibal crossing the Alps riding into battle, we have guys like like Cheney, who, with all his physical ailments and heart problems couldn't possible cross the Alps, couldn't wield a sword. We have guys like Cheney and Bush, who instead of riding horses into battle, ride in new bomb proof limosines, hidden from American even on their inaugural day. We have guys like Cheney leading us from some undisclosed bunker as part of our "shadow" government. These are the guys, who, with a push of the button, can kill billions. So, what's stopping them? I don't know, and that's what's scarying me.

I'll continue to take my personal chances against the rabble by following the law, and if I have to use self defense I guess I will, but the real threat to us is who controls our WMD, not the rabble. I think the world would have more democracy without the threat of WMD by any country, because then, the majority would rule once again, but not anymore. I think a good argument could be made that as military technology increases, power of the people, decreases. We'll see.

Ayoob_Reloaded · Heavy Crude Joined: Dec 07, 2004 Posts: 383

I guess we will see. You know, I think we as US citizens have a blind spot. We actually DID use nuclear weapons. Twice. Against civilian populations.

Kennedy told the Russians to f^$k themselves during the Cuban Missile Crisis, told them to go ahead and launch whatever they had in Cuba. That's the toughest hand of poker I've ever heard of. If you haven't seen Fog of War, I'd most certainly recommend it. Five stars, it should be required watching in every high school history course. Astoundingly good show. I really felt for the guy. And for the Japanese people. And the Vietnamese people. And the soldiers. The enormity of the suffering he took part in is just unbelievable. Just to make it crystal clear, Robert McNamara said that JFK told Kruschev to launch his nuclear missles from Cuba against the United States, if he had the balls. McNamara was the Secretary of Defense at that time, and has a special calendar given to him by JFK that has the dates of the Cuban Missile Crisis engraved on its sterling silver face.

As a side note, my friend Joe's dad died a couple weeks ago from cancer related to Agent Orange. I never met Joe's dad, and Joe and I aren't really all that close. He's more of a friend of a friend, but we've tipped many a beer over the last couple of years. His dad died, in part because of McNamara's decision to use Agent Orange as a defoliant in Vietnam. It's his dad though, not mine.

I'm not convinced that we're all that morally superior. I'll bet Hitler would have used nuclear weapons, though. We stole all his scientists who were working on that project, right? That's where we got the idea, if I'm not mistaken. I'm probably mistaken, though. This is one area I know very little about.

Looking forward to more of your posts. I always like what you have to say. Your peanut butter idea is just genius. In a million years I never would have considered all the benefits. If I might throw a very slight refinement in just for the hell of it, if you can substitute almond butter for peanut butter it has a little tiny extra health benefit. I think it's about 2-3x the price, though. I know almond butter isn't the easiest thing to find in WalMart or Costco, I know for sure that Whole Foods and Trader Joe's has it. Dominicks and Jewel probably don't, and I don't know about Kroger or King Sooper.

seahorse · Expert Joined: Oct 15, 2004 Posts: 2081 Location: Arkansas

Ayoob,

I haven't seen the movie "Fog of War", but I will make a point to see it. I hope you know that I don't think Americans are morally superior. I just used the words "moral restraint" to describe whatever it is that keeps presidents from firing off nukes, but as you correctly point out, we have used nukes twice, and I'm sure we would again.

I'm most afraid of the fact that literally, one or two people in our country can devastate so many with the push of a button. Our current administration does nothing to ease that concern, that the power of our own WMD may be abused. Our current administration are "Neocons", which is some form of extreme political conservative that not even guys like Pat Buchannan relate to. The neocons do think America is morally superior and are waging preemptive wars to create a "New American Century" as expressed on the Neocon PNAC website. They clearly have the technological military power to wipe a lot of people out in pursuit of the New American Century. I'm not sure how far they will go, but the inaugural address suggests they have a lot farther to go, and Condi Rice referring to all those outposts of tyranny doesn't help either. That's why I say I'm more worried about these Neocons and the abuse of such devastating power, even against "domestic enemies" in this "war against terror." Hitler only dreamed of having the technology we have today to track peopl and kill them, singly or in mass, and it doesn't require a large standing army to do it.

WhistleWind · Tar Sands Joined: Jan 21, 2005 Posts: 46

Winning battles and winning wars are two very different
things. The US are were way ahead of the Iraqi army and the
invasion was a turkey shoot. Holding on to Iraq is very much more
difficult because the US have too few soldiers on the ground to
keep control of the population. Militarily, defeat is the only possible
outcome. This is a problem because without a military presence in
the Middle East the neocon scheme for control of the oil supply is
lost, and the SA regime may fall to the Islamists. They simply cannot
afford to admit they got it wrong, so they are stuck there in the
quagmire until there is a change of regime in Whitehouse. The
nuclear option is frightening, but I don't think Bush is mad enough
to use them, because there is no tactical advantage to using them.
Why nuke Iran if you take out the oil infrastructure at the same time as
the Mullahs? The other glimmer of hope is that when it comes to
the crunch, orders are not always obeyed. The Berlin wall fell because
the army refused orders from the Premiere to shoot on the protestors.
The Tianammen Square massacre was delayed for week before an
army could be shipped in from a remote province prepared to shoot
at their own people.
BTW it is wrong to think of Roman legionaires as
musclemen. They were disciplined, but puny compared to most of the
Germanic tribesmen.