For a minute there I thought I had to get off my couch, when all the while the fact is we don't have to do anything much but keep things afloat for just a few decades more! In fact, we'd best shut up about PO, because if our offspring finds out we knew about it all along, they'll turn and wring our necks come 2036!
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 3:32 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
[quote="Bytesmiths
So you want the US Homeland Security Agency in charge of Canada's borders? Might as well just give up and plunk a red maple leaf down next to the 50 blue stars on the US flag.
I don't really like the idea of being under their "thumb" as it were, but if we could come up with a common set of rules and cusotms officer certification, woudl it not be more efficient to just focus on the external, foreign risks,a nd avoid worrhying about the US-Canada border. I'd bet we spend a lot of money, and so does the U.S. just on that imaginary line separating Canda and the U.S. What real value added is that?
Quote:
I really think our way of life is so similar, even more similar than say, Spain and France...
It's not so much "way of life" as it is attitude and world view that separates Canadians from Merkuns. I agree that Toronto is more like Chicago than a rural Saskatchewan community is like a rural Oklahoma community. Any place with a Mall*Wart is more like any other place with a Mall*Wart than it is like a place with local businesses.
But back to the topic: the thing I object to is not common border security -- heck, US Homeland Security is already operating on Canadian soil at the ferry terminals in BC -- it's the implicit movement away from local control to corporate control. The SPP/NAU comes with "regulatory harmonization," which I'm certain means a reduction in environmental and social protection in most cases.
For example, our wee island has a Saturday market that is fairly well known in these parts. It can be lucrative to the vendors, who must have lived on the island for at least six months, and the art and food sold must be locally produced. Under "big business" agreements, like SPP and TILMA, such a thing will not exist, nor will attempts to stop big-box stores succeed. An artist from Alberta could petition the TILMA panel, and BC could be fined $5,000,000 for allowing local rules that discriminate against non-local participants. Salt Spring Mall*Wart -- here we come!
I am not in favor either of the corporate slant of the American government, but you know, I think that a lot of American are not so enchanged with it anymore, seeing what a sellout Bush has been. I'd bet you the next election, you will see many more Americans voting agaisnt that kind of sweetheart Republican corporate shackup.
With regard to Peak Oil, I think most of us agree that re-localization is A Good Thing, and that the future will be more local than today. Doesn't it seem a step in the wrong direction to de-localize by creating a new super-nation? I suspect that in 100 years or so, large nations will have collapsed into regional states that have common interests, unlike today, where the interests of a few people in places like Bentonville, Arkansas drive most national decisions.[/quote]
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 628 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Thu Sep 27, 2007 7:57 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
cantom wrote:
...try selling that to people, good luck with that.
More likely, explaining it after the fact.
But we are "the people." If you, and you, and you, don't educate yourselves, talk to friends, write letters, and vote, it will just happen while no one is paying attention. _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
Posted: Mon Oct 01, 2007 7:50 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Denny wrote:
But, seriously, isn't it high time that Canada and the U.S. developed identical drug, firearms, immigration and customs rules, and then the homeland security and immigration forces could be deployed to Canada's coasts and airports, and we both could enjoy an open border? Just as it works within Europe now for members of the EU? Just think of how much more efficient that would be for both parties, and it would speed up shipping and vacationers. I bet most Americans wouldn't know Calgary from Denver if they didn't see the odd Canadian flag. I really think our way of life is so similar, even more similar than say, Spain and France, who share an open border now inthe E.U.
I'm fine with this provided the Americans want to adopt Canadian laws and enforcement methods. We've demonstrated a far more effective system than the US, why would be take so many steps backwards.
I'm sure many American's would appreciate and actual, effective set of laws and security. _________________ Gravity is not a force, it is a boundary layer.
Everything is coincident.
Love: the state of suspended anticipation.
To get any appreciable distance from the Earth in
a sensible amount of time, you must lie.
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
RdSnt wrote:
I'm fine with this provided the Americans want to adopt Canadian laws and enforcement methods. We've demonstrated a far more effective system than the US, why would be take so many steps backwards.
I'm sure many Americans would appreciate and actual, effective set of laws and security.
Yes, I think it would be better too. But, I think many Americans would balk at the gun controls. Perhaps they could take a serious look at eliminating the second amendment from the Bill of Rights, if it could lead to a harmonous customs union. Some Canadians would balk at drug convictions leading to more prison time, but that would pass in time.
I think we all need to focus more on the higher efficiency this would lead to, and perhaps less Homeland Security and CBSA agents required, and less on national autonomy.
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3343 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:12 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Denny wrote:
But, I think many Americans would balk at the gun controls. Perhaps they could take a serious look at eliminating the second amendment from the Bill of Rights, if it could lead to a harmonous customs union. I think we all need to focus more on the higher efficiency this would lead to, and perhaps less Homeland Security and CBSA agents required, and less on national autonomy.
Wrong planet, Denny. You sound an awful lot like a republican spin-doctor. You working for the NAU?
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 5:48 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Ferretlover wrote:
Denny wrote:
But, I think many Americans would balk at the gun controls. Perhaps they could take a serious look at eliminating the second amendment from the Bill of Rights, if it could lead to a harmonous customs union. I think we all need to focus more on the higher efficiency this would lead to, and perhaps less Homeland Security and CBSA agents required, and less on national autonomy.
Wrong planet, Denny. You sound an awful lot like a republican spin-doctor. You working for the NAU?
Well, I am sure everybody likes to cling to the things they are comfortable with, but if you look at Europe, they have adapted to many laws and standards that cut across the EU. Things like immigration standards, minimum wage, environmental standards.
Those changes have improved the overall economic efficiency and improved the way of life for people. Just look at how prosperous Ireland is today, versus ten years ago. I think the NAU is just a matter of time. And, the sooner the better so we can trade more easily. When you think that centuries long enemies in Europe have worked togther, it should be so much easier for us here in North America, where we have more or less been friends over time, including Mexico.
I think some people are seeing the future holds for union. Just last weekend, an American commentator, Jim Puplava, referred to the new unit of money as the "Amigo". I like that name.
I am not sure how to incorporate Mexico in all this, as it seems they have little control right now over the drug traffic, and it would destroy their economy righ now to adopt $8 an hour minimum wages, or maybe even $5 an hour. But, I think the US and Canada could join together economically. Sure, we want to keep some distinctions, like our languages. Just like Scotland is distinct from Portugal, but a whole lot of our legal and customs distinctions right now can be converged with some positive attitude.
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 628 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Tue Oct 02, 2007 7:45 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Denny wrote:
[... if you look at Europe, they have adapted to many laws and standards that cut across the EU. Things like immigration standards, minimum wage, environmental standards.
I think the big difference is that the EU had no dominant player, despite the relative strength of Germany and the UK.
If the same thing happens in North Amerika, how much influence do you honestly think Canada and Mexico will have? They'll be force-fit into the Amerikan mold. _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
"[b][i] NIAGARA FALLS, N.Y. - U.S. peace activists Medea Benjamin and Ann Wright have had a tough time entering Canada lately because their names send up red flags in border agents' computers.
Both women have been arrested in the United States protesting against the Iraq war, which has landed them in an international criminal database. When they visited Canada in August, they were told they would have to apply for "criminal rehabilitation" and pay $200 if they ever wanted to visit again. Neither applied.
On Wednesday, Benjamin, co-founder of the anti-war group Code Pink, and Wright, a retired U.S. army colonel, walked into Canada at Niagara Falls to test whether they really would be denied entry because of their anti-war-related arrests.
They were."
Strange or what. An international "criminal" database for being a war protestor? I find it literally amazing that Canada charges $200 to make an application for "criminal rehabilitation" too, whatever that is. What a scam.
I also find it amazing that some drug using pond scum in the entertainment field find it no problem to enter Canada. I guess money talks. Its the ultimate passport.
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 628 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Wed Oct 03, 2007 10:04 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Denny wrote:
For those worried that the U.S. would dominate a free border arrangement, well, just look at this, even today, the U.S. dominates.
So, your point seems to be that the US is already dictating Canadian border policy, so why not just invite them to dictate foreign policy as well?
I don't think so!
Quote:
I also find it amazing that some drug using pond scum in the entertainment field find it no problem to enter Canada. I guess money talks. Its the ultimate passport.
Not to mention that our own premiere, Gordon Campbell, was arrested for DUI in Hawaii. I sure wish someone had turned him away at the border! _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 12:29 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Here's a video allegedly showing North American Union police (with the NAU symbol on their uniforms) in California:
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread306503/pg1 _________________ One of these now am I too, a fugitive from the gods and a wanderer, at the mercy of raging Strife.
--Empedocles
Joined: Jun 13, 2007 Posts: 3343 Location: Minniesotuh
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 2:38 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
While I recognise it certainly would suit the creators of the NAU to have the public creating all sorts of misinformation, I think I would like a bit more proof that the patches on those men represent the NAU.
There seems to be several logos that claim to be NAU patches.
Anybody in CA want to investigate this?
Or, supposedly, NC has printed NAU driver's licenses. Anybody know anything about that?
Supposedly, the Denver mint closed down last month 'for construction,' but there are claims that it was closed to the public to stamp and ship out the 'Ameros.'
See what I mean? _________________ "RRrrruuuunnnn!!!" ~Apocalypto
Joined: Oct 27, 2004 Posts: 628 Location: Salt Spring Island, Cascadia
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 7:26 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
Cynus wrote:
Here's a video allegedly showing North American Union police (with the NAU symbol on their uniforms)...
I think they're just rent-a-cops. The patch on their sleeve is of the entire western hemisphere, not just North America.
It is an entirely different question about why rent-a-cops are seemingly performing traditional police functions. I think they should stay in the malls, protecting business property. I'm more than a little nervous about what an estimated 130,000 Blackwater mercenaries are going to do for a living when they come home from Iraq. _________________ :::: Jan Steinman, Communication Steward, EcoReality, a forming sustainable community. Be the change! ::::
Joined: May 13, 2007 Posts: 598 Location: Athabasca, Alberta
Posted: Sun Oct 07, 2007 8:59 pm Post subject: Re: North American Union
[quote="BytesmithsI'm more than a little nervous about what an estimated 130,000 Blackwater mercenaries are going to do for a living when they come home from Iraq.[/quote]
Samething that happened to the South Africans who worked for Executive Solutions. _________________ Appuis ait fabrum esse suae quemque fortunae.
Alias Redneck
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