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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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 Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:10 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | | None of this invalides the pursuit of Hydrogen. |
Except as a solution to an energy shortage.
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A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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pstarr
Expert
Joined: Sep 27, 2004
Posts: 7081
Location: Behind the Redwood Curtain
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 2:20 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | | MonteQuest wrote: | | ushoys wrote: | | Why does it have to be cheap or abundant? "Cheap" and "abundant" are of course a relative terms and the times of cheap, abundant energy by yesterday's standards are gone forever. Again, that doesn't mean it is not worthwhile to convert one form of energy into another. It will just be at an ever-increasing expense. |
And no net gain in energy, but a net loss.
The time when we could have a solar/hydrogen infrastructure is decades away at best.
The last thing we need now is a new energy consumer. |
Yes a net loss. Any practical option is going to be net loss to some degree.
Solar/H2 infrastructure will take a long time if it comes at all and I agree we need to reduce the number of (new and old) energy consumers by having fewer children.
None of this invalides the pursuit of Hydrogen. |
Jeremy Rifkin's 'Hydrogen Economy' is a wonderful vision. Renewable energy production via wind/solar powered electrolysis of H2O into hydrogen gas for fuel cell power. Distributed into a local grid complemented with hydrogen storage and and limited regional electric and H2 distribution. Hydrogen demand jump-started with natural gas fueled H2 reformers. etc. etc. until transport fleet and delivery system in place.
The problem with the above is peak oil is a liquid fuel transport problem and PEM fuels cells won't drive or fly. Too expensive, underpowered, and the hydrogen doesn't want to store.
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Kingcoal
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Joined: Sep 29, 2004
Posts: 2330
Location: Pennsylvania, USA
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| Posted: Sun Aug 12, 2007 6:26 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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People just don't understand EROEI.
http://www.eroei.com/
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ushoys
Coal
Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Mon Aug 13, 2007 5:36 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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Don't be condescending please. Some of us are fully aware of the principles of EROEI.
I'm not touting Hydrogen or anything else as a viable option. I'm just not prepared to completely reject ideas of alternative forms of energy just because they are expensive, difficult, non-renewable or take more energy in another form to create. |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 12:40 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | | I'm just not prepared to completely reject ideas of alternative forms of energy just because they are expensive, difficult, non-renewable or take more energy in another form to create. |
Now, that should be a member quote. 
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A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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davep
Expert
Joined: Jun 21, 2006
Posts: 1196
Location: Burgundy, France
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 6:00 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| MonteQuest wrote: | | ushoys wrote: | | I'm just not prepared to completely reject ideas of alternative forms of energy just because they are expensive, difficult, non-renewable or take more energy in another form to create. |
Now, that should be a member quote. |
If ushoys took out the "non_renewable" bit, I would tend to agree with him. For example, any energy derived from solar (or other sustainable sources) will have less than 100% efficiency. But the EROEI is irrelevant in this context (except for creating/maintaining the equipment itself) as the energy invested is from the sun.
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All that we are is the result of what we have thought. The mind is everything. What we think we become. - Buddha |
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Graeme
Fission
Joined: Mar 04, 2005
Posts: 2557
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Tue Aug 14, 2007 7:23 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | | I'm not touting Hydrogen or anything else as a viable option. I'm just not prepared to completely reject ideas of alternative forms of energy just because they are expensive, difficult, non-renewable or take more energy in another form to create. |
A solar-water-heater scheme here in NZ has not been successful in spite of government subsidy.
But, in keeping with the theme of the thread, a combined solar wind hydrogen rural project is a world's first and is predicted to be nation-wide within five years.
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Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us. |
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Gazzatrone
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 553
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 7:54 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: |
Don't be condescending please. Some of us are fully aware of the principles of EROEI.
I'm not touting Hydrogen or anything else as a viable option. I'm just not prepared to completely reject ideas of alternative forms of energy just because they are expensive, difficult, non-renewable or take more energy in another form to create. |
Then with all due respect, if you understand the principles of EROEI, then you wouldn't make such quotable comments. You can't have it both ways.
You cannot produce Energy at a net loss and expect to be better off for it. You might as well use the energy you had in the first place as your source of energy and forget about what you are trying to produce with it.
If reports are correct as well, that oil is at a collective average EROEI rate of 3:1 then I think you may find very soon, that you will very easily reject those net energy loss ideas.
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THE FUTURE IS HISTORY! |
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ushoys
Coal
Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:37 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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"You cannot produce Energy at a net loss and expect to be better off for it. You might as well use the energy you had in the first place as your source of energy"
Like using Uranium to fuel my car directly? |
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MonteQuest
Elite
Joined: Sep 06, 2004
Posts: 13460
Location: Sedona, Arizona
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| Posted: Fri Aug 17, 2007 10:43 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | "You cannot produce Energy at a net loss and expect to be better off for it. You might as well use the energy you had in the first place as your source of energy"
Like using Uranium to fuel my car directly? |
Energy Illiteracy; An Obstacle to a Sustainable Future
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A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog. |
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Gazzatrone
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 553
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Sat Aug 18, 2007 5:19 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | | Like using Uranium to fuel my car directly? |
As a form of population control?
You weren't kidding when you said you'd be prepared to listen to any idea.
Imagine how long the World's Uranium stocks would last if every car used it to propel itself. You'd have Peak Uranium, Cliff and exhaustion within hours.
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THE FUTURE IS HISTORY! |
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ushoys
Coal
Joined: Jun 17, 2007
Posts: 17
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| Posted: Sun Aug 19, 2007 9:34 am Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| Gazzatrone wrote: | | ushoys wrote: | | Like using Uranium to fuel my car directly? |
As a form of population control?
You weren't kidding when you said you'd be prepared to listen to any idea.
Imagine how long the World's Uranium stocks would last if every car used it to propel itself. You'd have Peak Uranium, Cliff and exhaustion within hours. |
I wasn't serious, just responding to the previous post suggesting it was pointless to convert one form of energy to another at a loss and better to just stick with the original form of energy.
Clearly different forms of energy are suitable for different applications. For example, wind, wave, coal, nukes, solar are impractical to consider for powering personal vehicles but they are suited for electrical generation which can then be converted to other more suitable forms of energy for transportation. And all these processes are net loss. |
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Graeme
Fission
Joined: Mar 04, 2005
Posts: 2557
Location: New Zealand
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| Posted: Fri Oct 12, 2007 3:29 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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Here is an update on this story which I just happen to see this morning on a NZ news web site called Stuff. I must emphasize that I am sceptical too like the lecturer mentioned in the article but I can't help admiring his persistence.
| Quote: | Two years ago Mr Ryan went public, running a 350cc motorbike on water for the 60 Minutes television show.
Now Bios Fuel is preparing to drive 3000 kilometres from Darwin to Adelaide on a blend of waste oil and water, as part of the Panasonic World Solar Challenge.
Mr Ryan says scepticism from the scientific community and the public remains the main barrier to water-fuel technology.
He says there has been more support from the United States, and that is where Bio Fuels will focus its efforts. |
Stuff
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Human history becomes more and more a race between education and catastrophe. H. G. Wells.
Fatih Birol's motto: leave oil before it leaves us. |
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Gazzatrone
Intermediate Crude
Joined: Nov 07, 2005
Posts: 553
Location: London, UK
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:05 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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| ushoys wrote: | | Gazzatrone wrote: | | ushoys wrote: | | Like using Uranium to fuel my car directly? |
As a form of population control?
You weren't kidding when you said you'd be prepared to listen to any idea.
Imagine how long the World's Uranium stocks would last if every car used it to propel itself. You'd have Peak Uranium, Cliff and exhaustion within hours. |
I wasn't serious, |
It's hard to tell the difference sometimes. Although Cornucopia admittedly seems to have a withering population these days.
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THE FUTURE IS HISTORY! |
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DomusAlbion
Moderator
Joined: Dec 08, 2004
Posts: 1524
Location: Nez Perce Nation
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| Posted: Tue Oct 16, 2007 5:31 pm Post subject: Re: The Fuel of the Future is here |
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The transportation fuel of the future is hay.
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"Modern Agriculture is the use of land to convert petroleum into food."
-- Albert Bartlett
"It will be a dark time. But for those who survive, I suspect it will be rather exciting."
-- James Lovelock |
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