I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 3:50 pm Post subject: Anyone from Switzerland?
Hi,
I was hoping to find some people from Switzerland to discuss the PO issue with.
I am in particular curious of what you think the future of Switzerland will be in a PO situation compared to other countries. Do you think the Swiss will do "ok", and why?
Do you think there will be a huge inflation in Switzerland too?
And what about housing? Would you recommend renting or buying a house?
If you rent, then you can't invest in solar panels and invest in a garden to survive, right?
But if you buy a house and have a mortgate, then what happens when the recession starts and you can't pay the mortgate anymore? Do you think there will be so many people in the same situation that you could still live in the house (as the banks may start to disappear too)? Or do you think you end up on the street?
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:02 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
Switzerland is doomed. Way too many poeple. Go back to WW2 and see how they planted potatoes on any piece of land they could find and it was hardly enough. Now 60 years later the land is the same, just about 3x the population.
That's why I moved from Switzerland to the US and bought a nice big piece of land. But I sure miss my Eichhof beer. And the cheese. and the the Servelat, and my Roeschti. Ohhh, now I made myself cry. Sob..
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:27 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
1000m*m is not very much. But again it depends what you want to achieve. If you're expecting complete doom and collapse and you want to achieve total independence you will need about 5 acres (20000m*m) to just provide the wood to heat and cook. However again, if you build a modern house with a geothermal heating system, wind turbine and solar for electricity you probably won't need wood at all.
For food I don't know how much you need, but I don't think 1/4 acre is enough to sustain a person. Maybe somebody else can shed some light on this. Would be interesting to know how much land is needed to feed one person.
And then again, I'm not sure if it is realistic to expect total collapse. In case that happens I expect you will also need some gun towers to defend your vegetables.
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
I guess I am most interested in the "most probable" scenario (whatever that means I guess depends on if you are an optimist or a pessimist . I would expect huge problems but not total doom.
I don't think I can realistically prepare for a "total doom" scenario anyway, but I think it's possible to prepare somewhat for a scenario a la Cuba (huge energy shortage, people have to grow about 60% or more of their food).
My (idealistic?) plan would be to live in a house that is mostly energy independent (solar heating, solar panels etc) so no or little wood would be needed except for cooking.
How much land would you need to say provide for 50% of the food per person?
But unless you are rich (I am not) it would be impossible to outright own a house in CH, so it would have to be via mortgage.
That's why I wonder what happens in a huge recession with (hyper)inflation and all that. What happens to the banks? Will they disappear? If so, what happens to all the mortgages ?
Posted: Wed Aug 08, 2007 4:57 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
who knows what happens in a great depression. There are tons of threads dealing with that question. I wouldn't worry too much about a mortgage as long as you keep it reasonable. Decent downpayment, affordable monthly installements. No problem with that. If you're skilled (engineer, doctor) I don't even think you will have to worry about your job anytime soon. If you're selling used SUVs, that might be a different story.
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 2:12 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
Switzerland is probably the best country in the world. If I were able to immigrate there, I would. If you make good doomer preps, you should be able to survive the die-off and thrive there.
The United States has some great land, but it is doomed. It is just like 1930s Germany right now trashing its own currency and quickly becoming a fascist police state. We also have unchecked illegal immigration, a population of divershitty, and boxes made of ticky tacky have replaced all the farm land.
I'm going to try to hold on here in the U.S. because I really have no where else to go and no money. _________________ Iran: 'Murrica's FINAL frontier
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:20 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
max_power29 wrote:
Switzerland is probably the best country in the world. If I were able to immigrate there, I would. If you make good doomer preps, you should be able to survive the die-off and thrive there.
Switzerland has the most reasonable government I have ever dealt with. However it's grossly overpopulated. With 7M people on about 20'000km^2 usable land (rest is mountains and lakes) it can't produce enough food to feed everybody. And that's even with all the mechanization and fertilizers.
Quote:
We also have unchecked illegal immigration,
Switzerland has about 20% immigrants (legal or illigal doesn't make that much of a difference, it's still a cultural nightmare). That's probably about the same as the US. However the US has all the Mexicans, Europa is swamped with muslims, and believe me that is ugly.
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 8:23 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
dsula,
I am curious to what your situation is/was. Can you tell me a little more about it?
Where did you live in CH, what did you do (profession), do you have a family, and what do you do now in the US? What was the main trigger that made you move to the US? Do you still have family in CH, and are you planning to stay forever in the US or do you think you may move back depending on how it goes?
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:42 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
I moved to the US because I was hired by a US company right after graduation (10 years ago). I'm an electronic design engineer. I lived in the Los Angeles area for a few years and never liked it. I finally moved back to Switzerland realizing the Switzerland I loved is gone. I grew up in canton Zug and I used to say it was the most beatiful spot on the planet. Unfortunately it experienced such a phenomenal growth that I barely recognized my neighborhood anymore. I didn't feel comfortable and decided to move back to the US. This time however I moved to a small (2500 people) farming town in the middle of nowhere. It's far away from big centers not to attract low lifes and it's economically retarded enough not to attract growth. In short the perfect place for me. People are poor but friendly and helpful (whereas in canton Zug they are rich and arrogant). I bought as much land to even make a Swiss farmer jealous. If things stay the way they are I won't move anywhere else.
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 9:50 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
Hmm, that sounds similar to me: I moved to SD because of a job (software engineer), 8 years ago. I am considering moving back because of PO .
I am aware that I might experience what you did: that the CH I know is gone (8 years is a long time too...). We are currently trying to sell our house now (so far without success!), and will rent to stay flexible.
We haven't decided yet if we should move to CH (or somewhere else - but family is a big factor) and when, and with 2 kids etc this is obviously a major decision.... If we would move back, it would be in a rural area and not in a city (but close to a train/bus station). If I would stay 4 more years, we could get the US passport... but that might be too late for PO... so I think we won't wait that long...
It's so hard because it feels like living a "dual" live. The one where I am a software engineer, and the one we are preparing for (and we know little about except that it will probably be quite bad)... it all seems so unreal sometimes...
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 11:01 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
So you live in either Rapid City or Sioux Falls. I've been to the black hills once, beatiful place. Isn't the corn palace in Sioux Falls ? Also quite impressive.
You should not base your decision on where to live on PO. Nobody knows what will happen. You don't want to waste 10 years of your life sitting in some bunker and waiting for PO to happen. You should base your decision on where to live only on your heart and not your mind. You want to get up in the morning saying this is my home and I feel good. You don't want to get up and say this is a miserable place and I hate it but surely is the best place to survive PO. Not worth it. And as a software engineer I don't think you have to worry about a job anytime soon. And actually if you wait for a big recession you might be able to buy some nice foreclosed home in Switzerland for cheap.
Posted: Thu Aug 09, 2007 1:02 pm Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
With SD I meant San Diego (desert .
So where do you live now? It sounded like you moved back to the US because of PO? And what do you do professionally now, are you still an engineer?
What bothered you most about going back to Switzerland? What was the hardest aspect of readjusting back to CH live? And how long did you stay in CH before you decided to move back to the US?
I don't trust my heart so much because it is based on an easy live with cheap energy and a growing economy. The future may be so different that our past experiences are no help. I think I need to use my mind to think it through in detail to get an idea of the scale of the changes that PO will cause.
If I were to base my decisions only on the past, then I would do nothing to prepare and just continue the way I have before (since it seemed to work fine so far).
Yes, on the one hand I don't want to overreact and prepare for PO and then it won't happen for 10 years (I would feel very stupid).
But if you wait for too long, we may run out of options to prepare! What if you can't fly anymore... so much then for moving overseas (ships?))
To to me it seems better to prepare (and look like an idiot if nothing happens than to not prepare and then be completely doomed....
Any other opinions? Any other Swiss on this board???
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 12:35 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
dsula wrote:
Switzerland has the most reasonable government I have ever dealt with. However it's grossly overpopulated. With 7M people on about 20'000km^2 usable land (rest is mountains and lakes) it can't produce enough food to feed everybody. And that's even with all the mechanization and fertilizers.
There is no place that isn't grossly overpopulated anymore. You don't need to feed everybody, just yourselves. Just one dairy cow in the mountains could save a small family from starvation. Remember the old saying "I don't have to run faster than the bear, I just have to run faster than you" Like I said make good doomer preps, survive the famines/die-off and there will be plenty of land for all the savvy survivors. I seriously believe oppresive governments will be the biggest obstacle to survival. Switzerland has the best government in the world.
dsula wrote:
Switzerland has about 20% immigrants (legal or illigal doesn't make that much of a difference, it's still a cultural nightmare). That's probably about the same as the US. However the US has all the Mexicans, Europa is swamped with muslims, and believe me that is ugly.
That sucks, however, your militia (armed citizenry) rocks! It will be much more organized, effective, and scrupulous than the U.S. militia (armed citizenry) _________________ Iran: 'Murrica's FINAL frontier
Posted: Fri Aug 10, 2007 8:57 am Post subject: Re: Anyone from Switzerland?
max_power29 wrote:
Just one dairy cow in the mountains could save a small family from starvation.
I don't know about that. I lived in the mountains of Mexico for a few weeks in a town exactly like that. A familiy has one dairy cow, 2 sheep, 10 chickens and maybe a pig or 2. Land is hilly and a nightmare to grow stuff. Climate is good though, you can grow coffee, papayas, bananas, mangos and other good stuff. But believe me, after 2 month I got sick and tired of the scarcity.
I now imagine the same thing in the mountains of switzerland, growing potatoes (that's all that grows) and your dairy cow. Oh no, I'm sure there are better place for survival than that. At least you want your land to be flat so you can use a horse to plow.
But anyways I believe there are 2 possible scenarios. Total collapse where you truly need to be fully independent. In that event you're best friend will probably be your gun and it doesn't matter how much land you own. Because if you grow, next day your shot and your vegtables gone. Other scenario is law and order is maintained just cost of living increases big time. 50% of your paycheck goes for food and the other 50 for mortgage. And that's it, no more money for fun. And I believe that's the only scenario you can truely perpare for.
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