I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 12:51 pm Post subject: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
Iran plans strategic oil storage with China; refinery with Malaysia.
Quote:
Iran: Talks With China On Storing Oil Reserves
June 11, 2007 14 55 GMT
Iran is in talks with Beijing to store its strategic oil reserves in China as a safeguard against potential Western economic sanctions, Iranian Oil Minister Kazem Vaziri-Hamaneh said June 11, adding that the country also plans to build refineries around Asia. China already has completed filling its Zhenhai strategic reserve facility to its capacity of 33 million barrels and was scheduled to make the first deposit into its second storage facility at Aoshan by the end of May. China also stores crude oil from countries such as Angola and Sudan.
Iran discusses storing oil reserves in China
ReutersPublished: June 11, 2007
KUALA LUMPUR: Iran is in discussions to store strategic oil reserves in China and to build refineries around Asia, Iran's oil minister, Kazem Vaziri-Hamaneh, said Monday, as the country seeks secure outlets for its crude in the face of Western economic sanctions.
Vaziri-Hamaneh said Iran was in discussions to store crude in China, which has been building up reserves in the past year.
"We have some plans," he said at the Asia Oil and Gas Conference in the Malaysian capital. Discussions have revolved around China having a role in storing the strategic reserves, he said.
China's goal is a reserve of 100 million barrels by the end of 2008.
The crude being stored comes from countries like Angola, Iran and Sudan, shipping sources said.
China's crude imports from Iran are up 11 percent in the first four months of the year, compared with the same period in 2006.
A shift in Iranian sales to China could serve many interests.
He did not provide further details on these projects, although an official at National Iranian Oil said earlier Monday that Iran aimed to supply crude to a new refinery planned in northern Malaysia.
Vaziri-Hamaneh said Iran had also completed a deal with Essar Group of India to build a new refinery in Iran,.
Reuters/IHT _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:51 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
The oil storage part I can see, but the oil refinery part is a joke. If Iran can build oil refineries, why are they not building them in Iran? They have a need for more refinery capacity at home.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 1:57 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
nth wrote:
The oil storage part I can see, but the oil refinery part is a joke. If Iran can build oil refineries, why are they not building them in Iran? They have a need for more refinery capacity at home.
I see your point - being that Iran presently has a gasoline shortage, why build refineries far away? I assume that given a choice between selling oil/gasoline and using it internally, they have concluded it's better to get the oil/gasoline revenues and use other energy sources internally. However that still leaves them with a gasoline shortage until, for example, they can build natural gas powered cars. _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 2:57 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
DantesPeak wrote:
nth wrote:
The oil storage part I can see, but the oil refinery part is a joke. If Iran can build oil refineries, why are they not building them in Iran? They have a need for more refinery capacity at home.
I see your point - being that Iran presently has a gasoline shortage, why build refineries far away? I assume that given a choice between selling oil/gasoline and using it internally, they have concluded it's better to get the oil/gasoline revenues and use other energy sources internally. However that still leaves them with a gasoline shortage until, for example, they can build natural gas powered cars.
IF a refinery were located in Iran the United States would not think twice about bombing it- if and when they attack Iran. However an Iranian refinery located in China would be something else.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:06 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
CaptainCanuck wrote:
DantesPeak wrote:
nth wrote:
The oil storage part I can see, but the oil refinery part is a joke. If Iran can build oil refineries, why are they not building them in Iran? They have a need for more refinery capacity at home.
I see your point - being that Iran presently has a gasoline shortage, why build refineries far away? I assume that given a choice between selling oil/gasoline and using it internally, they have concluded it's better to get the oil/gasoline revenues and use other energy sources internally. However that still leaves them with a gasoline shortage until, for example, they can build natural gas powered cars.
IF a refinery were located in Iran the United States would not think twice about bombing it- if and when they attack Iran. However an Iranian refinery located in China would be something else.
That reason too, but the US Navy could try to blockade or disrupt shipments by sea. As far as I know, there is no piepline connecting Iran to China. _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:09 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
So Iran is turning to China to protect its resources? I couldn’t read the full article but the quote makes it appear as though China is protecting the resources of other countries as well.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 3:19 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
Sabibaby wrote:
So Iran is turning to China to protect its resources? I couldn’t read the full article but the quote makes it appear as though China is protecting the resources of other countries as well.
I wonder what China is getting in return?
Steady supplies of oil at contract rates, instead of fluctuating current market prices - plus access to oil reserves in emergencies.
Saudi Arabia is planning on building strategic oil reserves in Japan under the same general guidelines.
There is one thing I forgot to mention - Where are they planning on getting the oil from? - since it seems like they (Iran + SA) already sell all they produce. To build up reserves under peak oil means demand has to go down or be unfilled elsewhere (or inventories elsewhere are drawn down). _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Joined: Apr 17, 2005 Posts: 2750 Location: Vancouver Island
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:34 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
DantesPeak wrote:
There is one thing I forgot to mention - Where are they planning on getting the oil from? - since it seems like they (Iran + SA) already sell all they produce. To build up reserves under peak oil means demand has to go down or be unfilled elsewhere (or inventories elsewhere are drawn down).
Simple all of those new untapped fields that we constantly hear about can't completely be myths. There must be some extra oil that they can go out and tap and use internally. So there may actually be extra oil there. It's just not going to come to the west like so many hope for _________________ shame on us, doomed from the start
god have mercy on our dirty little hearts
Posted: Mon Jun 11, 2007 4:35 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
DantesPeak wrote:
....
I see your point - being that Iran presently has a gasoline shortage, why build refineries far away?....
Iran can end it's gasoline shortage by tomorrow morning if the government would STOP subsidizing it to the ridiculous price of 40 cents a gallon.
In all fairness every government has their favorite pet project they like to subsidize.
America --> freeways
France --> health care
OPEC countries --> gasoline / fuel
What do they all have in common? --> totally dependent on cheap energy.
BTW is it my imagination or is a lot of OPEC countries getting into the oil refining business? More specifically these projects tend to be "partnerships" with other countries rather then going it alone.
Saudi Arabia's Aramco and French energy company Total signed a deal on Sunday to build an oil refinery in Saudi Arabia at an estimated cost of $6 billion.
Iran and Venezuela, both at political loggerheads with the Bush administration, are deepening their economic ties. Iran will build an oil refinery in Faga, in Venezuela's oil-rich Orinoco province.
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 10:19 am Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
DantesPeak wrote:
There is one thing I forgot to mention - Where are they planning on getting the oil from? - since it seems like they (Iran + SA) already sell all they produce. To build up reserves under peak oil means demand has to go down or be unfilled elsewhere (or inventories elsewhere are drawn down).
Well, right now, Iran is having a hard time finding buyers of its heavy sour crude, so they are planning to stock these.
I think Saudi Arabia also have the same problem, but it is harder to tell as they always claim they had 1-1.5mbpd of heavy sour crude, but I have never seen data that this oil was ever produced. Iran on the other hand actually lost market share in the heavy sour crude market.
Joined: Oct 23, 2004 Posts: 5928 Location: New Jersey
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 3:45 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
nth wrote:
DantesPeak wrote:
There is one thing I forgot to mention - Where are they planning on getting the oil from? - since it seems like they (Iran + SA) already sell all they produce. To build up reserves under peak oil means demand has to go down or be unfilled elsewhere (or inventories elsewhere are drawn down).
Well, right now, Iran is having a hard time finding buyers of its heavy sour crude, so they are planning to stock these.
I think Saudi Arabia also have the same problem, but it is harder to tell as they always claim they had 1-1.5mbpd of heavy sour crude, but I have never seen data that this oil was ever produced. Iran on the other hand actually lost market share in the heavy sour crude market.
There is some spare production capacity in SA, maybe as much as 500,000 bpd, but that’s about all until they open some new fields (reopen would be a better description). To the best of my knowledge, that 500,000 bpd is heavy and sour and contaminated with heavy metals. It is possible but costly to remove those metals, and I understand the cost of doing so keeps going up.
In addition, that kind of refining may create pollution. So it’s no surprise they may just want to process that junk themselves – which seems like their conclusion as they announce a new 400,000 bpd refinery:
Quote:
Saudi Aramco, Sumitomo Chem plan expansion at Rabigh (12-6-2007)
Saudi Aramco (Saudi Arabian Oil Co.) plans to expand production capacity at its oil refinery and petrochemical joint venture with Sumitomo Chemical Co. under construction at the Red Sea coastal city of Rabigh by 2010. An investment layout of US$9.8 bln has been planned for the joint venture, likely to be completed on schedule and begin production in Q3-2008. Production will include gasoline, kerosene, ethylene, polyethylene and other oil and petrochemical-related materials using locally supplied crude oil and natural gas.
The two partners are in talks to finalize first-stage expansion plans by next year. Expansion plans to raise the plant's capacity in two stages after the start of operations, had been agreed upon prior to signing the contract.
Plastemart _________________ It's already over, now it's just a matter of adjusting.
Posted: Tue Jun 12, 2007 4:03 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
If Iran has its refineries in China, and China has to depend on Iran for its oil, you have a bond that is not easily broken. This would make sense if they were anticipating a major meltdown of Western economies. It looks like they are!
Joined: Feb 09, 2006 Posts: 416 Location: Venezuela
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:01 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
shortonoil wrote:
If Iran has its refineries in China, and China has to depend on Iran for its oil, you have a bond that is not easily broken. This would make sense if they were anticipating a major meltdown of Western economies. It looks like they are!
Venezuela and Iran both seem to see the same with their partnerships with China.
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:05 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
Also I think China's positioning themselves as a business partner in ways that the west couldn't catch up to even if they/we tried... much more bad blood there even without Dubya!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:52 pm Post subject: Re: Iran to Store Oil In China/Build Far East Refineries
I expected something like this would happen. The Chinese and Iranian (formerly "Persian") civilizations have a long history (at least 2,000 years) of trade and diplomatic relations, so it makes sense that they would cooperate to diffuse the risk they face from a perceived common enemy (the United States). You need "history glasses" that view back well before the mid 20th Century to understand and anticipate people's behavior in that part of the world.
shortonoil wrote:
If Iran has its refineries in China, and China has to depend on Iran for its oil, you have a bond that is not easily broken. This would make sense if they were anticipating a major meltdown of Western economies. It looks like they are!
_________________ "There was a time before reason and science when my ancestors believed in all manner of nonsense." Narim on Stargate SG-1.
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