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americandream
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 Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:00 am Post subject: Marxism as a response to peak oil |
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Moderator, can we possibly open a discussion thread looking at marxism....as in non cornucopian, internationalist, collectivised non-religious secular efforts..as a response to peak oil..
as opposed the usual xenophobic, doomerish, euthanising options that seem to receive a weighting in here.
Presumably this is an open forum looking at ALL alternatives to cornucopian resource depletion including Cuban style collectvism.
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Bas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:15 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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| americandream wrote: | Moderator, can we possibly open a discussion thread looking at marxism....as in non cornucopian, internationalist, collectivised non-religious secular efforts..as a response to peak oil..
as opposed the usual xenophobic, doomerish, euthanising options that seem to receive a weighting in here.
Presumably this is an open forum looking at ALL alternatives to cornucopian resource depletion including Cuban style collectvism. |
Why would you ask for permission for that? And for what it's worth I agree with what you just wrote here; it would very interesting to analyze what the different socialist/communist models can offer.
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seldom_seen
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:16 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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The problem isn't political AD.
You've got to do the math look at the numbers. It's all about numbers, scalability, limits. There's no ism or schism that is going to save our butts. The damage is already done. When the music stops there aren't going to be enough chairs for everyone. Even if they're all wearing a che guevara t-shirt.
I do admire you though for admitting forthright that you're a marxist. Most marxists slip and slide through the grass never showing their true colors. Here in the US they never call themselves marxists, they always come up with some code name like "progressives" (who's against being progressive?) or "anarcho-syndicalists."
But you and I know if it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck... |
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Bas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:19 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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SeldomSeen, I think cuba wouldn't have to adjust much more to get along with no oil at all...
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seldom_seen
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:40 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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| Bas wrote: | | SeldomSeen, I think cuba wouldn't have to adjust much more to get along with no oil at all... |
I addressed cuba as a model for peak oil survival here:
http://www.peakoil.com/fortopic18444-0-asc-0.html |
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Bas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:48 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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Thanks for the link. I guess we have enough Cuba threads then since I started one myself not too long ago. Still, the question of socialism remains an important one; and in that regard systems may be less important than attitude: willingness to share the burden.
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americandream
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 1:59 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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My point I guess is this...
the issue I'm trying to highlight and have been trying to highlight to date is that in considering a far right solution which contemplates a regional/nationalist solution to a failing global system, why not include consideration of a far left Soviet/Cuban style global solution...
one that is systemically more likely to be able to co-ordinate the addressing of core planetary issues such as a failing climate envelope and other collective problems that cannot possibly be remotely adressed by area limited solutions in regionalism or nationalism.
I'm not talking here of liberal solutions but full blown iron fisted resonse to issues that call for total discipline, social order and self sacrifice.
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americandream
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:06 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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One aspect of such a global effort would have at the top of the list a clampdown on all global transience....along the lines of the restrictions that existed in the USSR..this for one would address the fears of the xenophobes and also reduce profligate use of oil in moving the global population at the excessive rates we see today...by legal and other means.
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Bas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:15 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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I'm trying to imagine, but I just can't see how it will ever happen. But the point that if the Soviet Union was still around and that they might be much more effective in dealing with the consequences of PO (and maybe climate change too) is well taken.
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americandream
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:26 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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| Bas wrote: | | I'm trying to imagine, but I just can't see how it will ever happen. But the point that if the Soviet Union was still around and that they might be much more effective in dealing with the consequences of PO (and maybe climate change too) is well taken. |
As we all know..any solution less than a global one will be an utter waste of time....with the best of intentions, any solution that fails to bring the iron fist of absolute order across the face of the planet will merely be a patch work quilt of failed effort.
The voice that is currently lacking in the Peak oil forum...on the left that is..is the voice of the hard left. We have the militant solution on the far right...but as I mentioned above, for any solution to work will literally have to shut the entire planet down under the barrel of the gun.
National socialism simply wont work....as appealing as it may seem with its disciplinarian face.
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americandream
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:36 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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I'm not talking here of wishy washy namby pamby politically correct pink politics...but the red politics of systemic collectivism based on the notion of self contained global regionalism under a planetary order premised on remedial and then sustainable population/developmental systems.
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Bas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 2:46 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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I think a hard left voice is hard to be found anywhere, I could try and play one but I don't think I'd come across convincingly.
A point that should be worked on is global concensus and cooperation, that, indeed is our only hope. Unfortunately, in recent years we have drifted far from that golden path and it will take us some serious effort and time to get back on it and stay on it.
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americandream
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:02 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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| Bas wrote: | I think a hard left voice is hard to be found anywhere, I could try and play one but I don't think I'd come across convincingly.
A point that should be worked on is global concensus and cooperation, that, indeed is our only hope. Unfortunately, in recent years we have drifted far from that golden path and it will take us some serious effort and time to get back on it and stay on it. |
We will never know unless we start the conversation and take it to its logical conclusion. After all, if we can waste reams of exchange on incomplete remedies. On the other hand now may well be the time to look at the limits of what will constitute a global response and what it would take to underline its contours.
Any response will involve the use of arms...of that I am sure. I guess the issue we need to ask ourselves is how effective will regional fortresses be on the sinking island of planet earth. In other words, will we have to marshall the entire islands population to the construstion of a fully enclosing system of comprehensive dykes instead and how do we go about rousing them first from slumber and then mobilise them to the task.
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Bas
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:08 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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| americandream wrote: | | In other words, will we have to marshall the entire islands population to the construstion of a fully enclosing system of comprehensive dykes instead and how do we go about rousing them first from slumber and then mobilise them to the task. |
I guess we should put the Dutch in charge then 
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americandream
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| Posted: Wed Feb 07, 2007 3:25 am Post subject: Re: For those of us who are rational thinkers |
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| Bas wrote: | | americandream wrote: | | In other words, will we have to marshall the entire islands population to the construstion of a fully enclosing system of comprehensive dykes instead and how do we go about rousing them first from slumber and then mobilise them to the task. |
I guess we should put the Dutch in charge then |
LOL...Ja Meneer.
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