Future picture?

Guest · Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 1:12 pm Post subject:

I suggest you lay off this kind of hateful generalization.

smiley · Fission Joined: Apr 16, 2004 Posts: 2145 Location: Europe

Link.

Baruch Goldstein, a Jewish settler, entered a mosque at praying time and emptied his machine guns, on men, women and children alike. In total he killed 29 and wounded over fifty until he was stopped and beaten to death by the survivors.

This is what is written on his tombstone. A left wing politician demanded recently to have at least "righteous" and "martyr" removed. This led to right wing protests and eventually, the high court overruled him.

Here lies the saint, Dr. Baruch Kappel Goldstein, blessed be the memory of the righteous and holy man, may the Lord avenge his blood, who devoted his soul to the Jews, Jewish religion and Jewish land. His hands are innocent and his heart is pure. He was killed as a martyr of God on the 14th of Adar, Purim, in the year 5754.

Even last year a book appeared which tries to justify Baruchs actions by claiming that Baruch walked-in that mosque and shot those people in a pre-emptive act of self-defense

http://www.geocities.com/chaimsimons/baruchgoldstein

I think this vividly displays that you've got maniacs on both sides. Both these people as the people from Hamas are openly supported by their respective governments.

As long as both governments show such a blatant disregard for the lives of the innocent the violence will continue. Both governments need an urgent reminder of their responsibilities towards innocent lives.

And whenever a government crosses the line between acting in self-defense and provoking (or executing) indiscriminate violence it needs to be corrected.

Cool Hand Linc · Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:47 pm Post subject: I agree

I think it does show that there is maniacs on both sides. I do see a few differences yet.

snip: Goldstein's actions were immediately condemned by the Israeli government, and the Israeli populace in general. Spokespeople in all of the organized denominations of Judaism denounced his act as immoral and as terrorism. http://www.free-definition.com/Baruch-Goldstein.html

His actions were not supported by the main stream in Isreal. I don't believe that a celebration occurred in the streets where flags were burned. His actions are more an exception than a rule.

According to a poll conducted among Palestinian adults from the Gaza Strip and the West Bank including East Jerusalem at the end of May by Dr. Nabil Kukali and the Palestinian Center for Public Opinion (PCPO), "a substantial majority (76.1%) support suicidal attacks like that of Netanya [in May], whereas 12.5% oppose, and 11.4% express no opinion."

http://www.israelinsider.com/channels/security/articles/sec_0049.htm

I am not going to argue on a peak oil site about who is right or wrong. Do you know a site we can go to. We can argue all day if you want but this is a PEAK OIL site.

PS I don't hate you and desire no ill will toward you for your having differing beliefs of mine. I do still disagree.

Link

Guest · Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 2:56 pm Post subject:

No, this is DEFINITELY related to Peak Oil. The U.S. is claiming to bring democracy to the Arab world with his Iraq war (if only as a backup reason). Anyone who's serious about this, should acknowledge that an absolute prerequisite to democracy is the lack of any foreign occupation. The Palestinians must be treated symmetrically either through an independent and viable state or through becoming part of a binational and secular state. You can't have it both ways.

smiley · Fission Joined: Apr 16, 2004 Posts: 2145 Location: Europe

On the contrary. Every year, the day of this massacre is publicly celebrated at his grave and at the mosque where the killings occurred.

Anyway thats just some info. I know with these kind of discussions that they can go on for days and we're indeed drifting from the subject.

However I think it has everything to do with oil

The Saudi's don't hate the US because it invaded Iraq. They hated Saddam too, they believed he planned to invade their country after he was finished with Quwait, they we're glad to see him go. Even Osama didn't support Saddam.

No they hate the US because of their continuous support to Israel. This was the reason for the oil embargo in the 70's. It is the reason for the terrorism now.

This conflict is the key to the Middle-East. It has been so from biblical times. Whatever your view on the conflict is or what you think that the solution is I hope that you understand that without peace in Israel and Palestina, there cannot be peace in the Middle-East.

And no peace means a non-secure oil supply.

Guest · Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 5:12 pm Post subject:

Cool Hand Linc · Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 9:40 pm Post subject: I agree

I am unaware that the majority of the population in Israel celebrates at his grave. Still it was one individual attacking civilians as apposed to Palestinians who attack in groups against civilians.

I actually agree with you at you last point Smiley. I do see that a large part of the problems there are being blamed and focused on the Israeli and Palestine problem.

I am not sure what solution. I have been listening to a man I consider a profit of today. He preaches from the Bible. At times he has quoted the Qumran. His name is Hal Lindsey. I watch his show when I am able. He teaches about Biblical prophecy. I feel it is good and honest information. If he is correct. This is all leading to a World war 3. It starts in this area.

http://www.hallindseyoracle.com/iib.asp Listen to May, 2004.

I find all he says very interesting. I prefer to watch the shows.

I do agree that that area of the world is small in size but big in what it means to the world.

As far as this being related to peak Oil . The world is all related yes, But specifics on whats up with the war there is not a direct relation. Neither country produces to speak of. It simply who lives where and who worships where.

Link

somethingtosay · Tar Sands Joined: Oct 17, 2004 Posts: 76 Location: Canada

Going into Iraq was a mistake. The war will create more problems than it solved. Its only a matter of time when the middle east realizes that vast amounts of oil is required to fuel the Military-Industrial complex, which keeps them subjugated, and they in time, will control the future of oil.

The Leader of the Free World likes to say The Iraq War is the centerpiece on the War on Terrorism. That plays well to the American Audience, but to the people living the War, they may hear it differently: America has acted on the presumption that Terrorism comes from them. NOT good situation here...

I believe that the goal of the war was to politically stabilize the region so that the oil resources could be managed in a open market free from existing middle east realities. I doubt the War will achieve that goal, and make political stability less likely to happen in the long run.