Like the illusion of Wall Street, with its vast and powerful investment banks, now shuttered, China too is an illusion perpetuated by the Globalists that gave us the 15,000 mile Caesar salad, poisoned cat food and lead based paint on babies' pacifiers. Like the illusion that money would come from thin air to always push housing prices higher, China has spent a generation pursuing its illusion. Pursuing an unattainable dream to be like the West, while 6000 years of its carefully shepherded top soil blows into the sea.
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 11:53 am Post subject: Re: Contoversial Response
Soft_Landing wrote:
so... just imagine if a group of people geared themself up to be energy self sufficient, but at the same time, ramped up their energy usage to extrodinarily large levels. These people would be responsible for bringing the peak forward (to a presumably lower level. and if not technically lower, the extra height would be artificial anyway), hence softening the decline. Also, these people would represent 'surplus capacity' for efficiency gains.
You just described the American consumer. By consuming more oil than we need, we are bringing the peak forward. But since there is so much room for efficiency gains, that could prolong the peak into a plateau of high oil prices. Giving the market forces the time to move to the new energy economy.
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:24 pm Post subject: oil depletion
US went into Afghanistan since Al quida members were thought to to in that country and supported by the Taliban. World opinion was in agreement with this assessment and that's why there is a REAl coalition there, that includes, as examples, French and Canadian troops. The US was NOT attacked by the Iraqis, none of the 9/11 terrorists were Iraqi, Iraq was not supporting Al quida.
The other major military powers of the world, including China, Russia, and lessor powers such as Pakistan, India (all with nuclear weapons) (all within 800 miles of Iraq) will not stand by idly and watch the US corner the worlds oil supply. Nor will the Western world, UK, Germany, France (as examples) stand by and do nothing. The US is the worlds paramount militar power, but we must not be confused and belive that the US is omnipotent. That got us into trouble in Vietnam.
Posted: Sat Jun 12, 2004 4:36 pm Post subject: Re: oil depletion
montbleu wrote:
The other major military powers of the world, including China, Russia, and lessor powers such as Pakistan, India (all with nuclear weapons) (all within 800 miles of Iraq) will not stand by idly and watch the US corner the worlds oil supply.
Who is going to stop the US? They have already finished the corner on the world oil supply.
Iraq, Kuwait, Saudi Arabia. That represents about 45% of the current world reserves. 1/2 of our military is parked right in that area.
The northern Iraqi oil fields are in Kurdish territory and they LOVE the United States. We are building a HUGE permanent military base smack dab in the middle of it.
The US military is making sure that THEY have access to a direct supply of oil when the real energy wars start. Our military can sit right on top of the oil that fuels the jets and and tanks. From that standpoint, they can have their finger on top of the oil countries if they even twitch a muscle the wrong way.
I suspect the US military will even have it's own military refineries for US gov't production.
Firstly you cannot occupy a country so far away, no matter how big your military advantage is. That's a lesson Europe has learned the hard way during its imperialistic days. If a country decides to revolt your soldiers are outnumbered by thousands to one. They were kicked out of their colonies by mobs which were armed with sticks and stones.
Looking at the situation in Iraq it will escalate. More US soldiers have died the past two months than during the entire war period which is for me a sign on the wall. I guess that at the moment guerillas are flowing in from Iran, Syria and Saudi Arabia.
Your also wrong about Kurdish support for the USA. They are happy to be freed from Saddam, but still haven't forgotten about the US betrayal in 75 which cost so many of their lives.
If you want to know how the Middle-East thinks of the USA I think this will give a good picture.
The Bush administration must think it's extremely important for the US to have a military base there, given the obvious problems with maintaining it over time in a hostile population. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
Firstly you cannot occupy a country so far away, no matter how big your military advantage is. That's a lesson Europe has learned the hard way during its imperialistic days. If a country decides to revolt your soldiers are outnumbered by thousands to one. They were kicked out of their colonies by mobs which were armed with sticks and stones.
Different situation. We will not be occupying Iraq by then. We will just have the military bases there with the option to move in and take over real quick if we need to.
The US has numerous weapons depots all over the world for similar situations. In the near term we are occupying Iraq. Long term we will just have 3 military bases leased there. But it will be right on top of the oil fields.
This is not an option that Iraq has. The US gov't is policing the future of world oil supply.
smiley wrote:
Looking at the situation in Iraq it will escalate. More US soldiers have died the past two months than during the entire war period which is for me a sign on the wall.
700-800 soldiers is nothing. Most wars of the past were measured in tens of thousnads of deaths. This is minor. I hate to be so dismissal about 800 deaths of US soldiers, but in the big picture, that is an acceptable loss for the issues at hand regarding oil supplies.
smiley wrote:
If you want to know how the Middle-East thinks of the USA I think this will give a good picture.
This is not a popularity contest. What the arabs think of the US is not really relevant. The arab culture and Islamic religion is corrupt and evil. The religion of Islam should be declared a terrorist group. They are practicing terrorism under the guise of religion.
We could care less what they think. We are there for the oil and that is it. Don't think it is anything else. This is an oil geo-political power move.
The French thought they could hold on to their base at Dien Bien Phu (Vietnam), they couldn't. Then the USA came in and thought they could control it. They couldn't either.
Even maintaining a military base in a hostile country is difficult.
But OK let's say for arguments sake that they are able to maintain a military outpost in Iraq. Such an outpost would span a few square miles, it's position would be chosen so that it would be easy to defend.
Guarding the oil infrastructure is an entirely different concept. Here your talking about large installations which span hundreds of square miles and thousands of miles of pipelines. This is impossible to defend.
About the popularity of the US. I fear this will be the single biggest problems for the Americans in this century. You can say that it's not a popularity contest, but if anything needs to be learned from 9/11 is that it is.
If I look at the Arabs in my neighborhood. These are very modern and liberal people, I accept them as Muslims and they accept me for as a beer drinking, pork eating atheist that I am. For years we have been getting along fine as neighbors and our kids play together.
But the last few years I've noticed the rising tensions. If the US keeps bullying its way into the Middle-East I can guarantee that some of them will someday cross the line between passive protest and active violence.
What if they start attacking US citizens in Europe (tourists businessmen politicians). This may lead a situation that your businesses are unable to to get into Europe, which would cause a major economic crisis for both of us.
The thing is: isolationism doesn't work. The USA cannot be independent from the rest of the world. Military yes, but economically no. You need the world to market your goods, to obtain goods and resources and to finance your debt.
Joined: May 17, 2004 Posts: 1969 Location: Democratic People's Republic of Washington
Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:21 pm Post subject:
Onyered wrote:
More men were killed in rehearsals for D-Day than have been killed in Iraq. If we had had the "We can't win, it's a quagmire" mentality then we might all be speaking German. 2 days after D-Day it was touch and go if we were going to be able to hang on. If the present day media was reporting the news we would have pulled out.
Militarily we won the Vietnam war. Politically we gave it away because protestors like John Kerry undermined the will to see it through. In 1968 the Tet offensive was supposed to be a popular uprising of the people of the south against their “oppressors”. Nothing like that occurred, the People of South Vietnam resisted. This was when Walter Cronkite made his infamous decree that the war was no longer winnable. In fact the local insurgents who rose up (the Viet Cong) were destroyed and from that time on “ local insurgents” were actually NVA. Because of Pres. Johnson's lack of moral fiber there was no resolve. He didn’t know what to do and wouldn’t let the military do what needed to be done.
I agree that we can make Iraq into another Vietnam. If we lack the resolve to see it through we can pull out and let the situation go totally to hell. But the theory being passed around here is that we can’t win. That is not true.
You must listen to the Micheal Savage show also. That is my favorite radio show. I only listen to AM, as FM sucks. FM turns off my brain, while AM makes me think _________________ Here Lies the United States Of America.
Joined: Apr 17, 2004 Posts: 984 Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posted: Sun Jun 13, 2004 9:24 pm Post subject: Hmmm
Quote:
Boy ain't that da truth.
You might as well throw in the last 12 years too. In a few years, we are going to regret having squandered our last chance to head off a crisis during the roaring 90s.
Clinton has to be one of the luckiest guys alive - he comes in just after the Bush recession has turned around, presides over the internet bubble, then blows town before the SHTF on the stock market, terrorism, peak oil, etc.
You got that right! Doctor Doom!
Hey Smiley, do you just hate everybody in the US or just our government? It seems to me that over and over your words make it sound as though you just hate the US. Peak oil aside, where are you from anyway?
I do agree with you that it is difficult to occupy another country. Especially when the military isn't allowed to kick butt as they see the need. Only engage the hostile forces and avoid killing civilians whenever possible. This is basically what our military is doing. Yes, there are some civilians who are getting killed just as when the first attack was launched on the mainland US. The terrists did not attack military at all but civilians.
To control or occupy isn't the goal.
snip
"Above all, our principles and our security are challenged today by outlaw groups and regimes that accept no law of morality and have no limit to their violent ambitions. In the attacks on America a year ago, we saw the destructive intentions of our enemies. This threat hides within many nations, including my own. In cells and camps, terrorists are plotting further destruction, and building new bases for their war against civilization. And our greatest fear is that terrorists will find a shortcut to their mad ambitions when an outlaw regime supplies them with the technologies to kill on a massive scale." President Bush September 12, 2002 speech to the UN.
I truly believe this is the root behind why we went in.
Smiley, A friend of mine at work has a son in Iraq. He is a soldier. He has already been injured once. He tells his father that most all the people he meets are glad America is there. That the pictures we see on TV news of the riots are but a small number of people. Most are glad we are their and helping them. It is a smaller percentile of the population that is fighting. He has told his father that with all he has seen that it is right that we are there. He doesn't want to die but he doesn't want to leave because he believes it is right to be there.
I believe this first person account of what is happening there.
The problem is such as President Bush was referring too. When an enemy is willing to take a plane and die in a crash. Strap on explosives and run at you and then kill themselves in an attempt to kill whomever possible. Driving a car at you and killing themselves, again in an attempt to kill as many others as possible, women, children, anybody.
It will be difficult to do the right thing. The increasing numbers of soldiers dieing is also a sign that America is willing to give blood to make things better. Not just kill everybody. America could drop a Mother Of all Bombs. It's not a nuclear bomb but conventional. But instead of doing this and possibly killing thousands of women and children, The US military attempts to pick off the few who are the real bad guys and save innocents.
Afaganistan seems to be moving in the right direction. The women of the country are not afraid to stand up and speak out. Iraqi's must be willing to stand with Americans and possibly give blood too. I really believe that staying the course is the best thing to do. Tough but right.
Link
Joined: Apr 10, 2004 Posts: 143 Location: Tulsa OK
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 12:52 am Post subject:
Smiley said:
“Firstly you cannot occupy a country so far away, no matter how big your military advantage is. That's a lesson Europe has learned the hard way during its imperialistic days. If a country decides to revolt your soldiers are outnumbered by thousands to one. They were kicked out of their colonies by mobs which were armed with sticks and stones.”
And:
“The French thought they could hold on to their base at Dien Bien Phu (Vietnam), they couldn't. Then the USA came in and thought they could control it. They couldn't either.”
Smiley, As to the sticks and stones, at Dien Bien Phu, they (I think they were called Viet Minh at that time) were armed with U.S. 105 howitzers captured by the Chinese in Korea. This came as a complete surprise to the French who didn’t in any way prepare for that kind of artillery bombardment. Dien Bien Phu was a complete tactical and strategic blunder. Read Bernard Fall’s “Hell in a very small place”.
The U.S. military stayed as long as we had they will for them to be there. The problem for the U.S. in Vietnam and what would be a legitimate cause for concern in Iraq is two fold.
First we never were able to define victory. Without a clear objective it is impossible to say when we have won.
The second is that Pres. Kennedy allowed Pres. Diem (the only legally elected Pres. Of SVN), to be assassinated. All later Pres. were if not appointed, then anointed by the U.S. This undermined their legitimacy.
There are legitimate concerns about Iraq and The U.S’s involvement there but comparing it to Vietnam shows a lack of knowledge about what happened there and why.
Hey Smiley, do you just hate everybody in the US or just our government? It seems to me that over and over your words make it sound as though you just hate the US. Peak oil aside, where are you from anyway?
No I want to make this absolutely clear. I don't hate the US or the Americans in general. In fact I find most Americans quite reasonable people, otherwise I wouldn't even be posting at this forum.
I live in Europe, and I do realise that without the intervention of the Americans and the Russians we wouldn't be living in a free Europe. However at that time you also had presidents like F.D. Roosevelt.
Now that was a great president. He founded the United Nations, he cooperated with the world. And when he went to war, the world followed him. Even some of the Arab nations.
But now you got G.W. Bush. I thought his father was a bad president, but he is infinitely worse. His track record so far.
- He bypassed the UN
- He disbanded the ABM treaty
- He threw the Kyoto protocol down the drain
- He denied the International court of Justice ( in fact he put legislation in place which makes it possible to invade the Netherlands in case an American is held there)
- He refuses to condemn Israeli violence (the only country to do so)
- His patriot act makes it possible to detain people (even US citizens and minors) indefinitely without the right to a proper defense.
- He displays a flagrant disregard to the convention of Geneva by allowing torture.
- He’s obstructing free trade, by it’s import embargo’s.
With this kind of actions he has managed to destroy over 40 years of international progress in four years. And it hasn’t made the world a safer place, on the contrary. He’s creating an unprecedented era of fear and hatred.
I’m of mixed Asian-European origin, however many people often mistake me for being Arabic because of my looks. When I go to the USA, I make sure that I arrive early at the airport, because I know I’ll be singled-out at every security check. Last time I was in the USA I immediately ran into problems at Dulles. I was jumped by two security guards because I made a “suspicious move” while being frisked. Hey, I’m ticklish, but that’s not a crime.
I don’t even blame these guards, they are doing their job and I can understand why they are a bit edgy. But it makes you feel like a criminal. That made me wonder about whether I’ll return to the USA. What if for some reason the suspect me to be a terrorist and detain me, how can I prove to be innocent without the right for a proper defense?
These are some of the reasons why I’m such a critic of the USA. How can you support a country which doesn't consider your interests in their international policy? How can you support a country where you don’t even dare to go to?
So that is my view on the Americans: Great people, but please choose your next president more wisely.
I don't blame the Isrealis for fighting and killing. The Palestinines must stop this kind of behavior if they want peace. Do they ever. NO! This is an issue that nobody seems to agree on but the Isrealis have never attacked a car full of a pregnant woman and young girls and shot them in the head! I see the evil here and until the Palistines stop this kind of stuff. THERE WILL BE NO PEACE!
It seems to be that many people choose to be blind to the actions of one side and condemn the actions of the other. Jump off the band wagon and look at boths side of this issue.
I have a question for you Smiley. Do you believe that the attack on and killing of a pregnant woman and several young girls was an act of war? Was it a justified action?
Link
Last edited by Cool Hand Linc on Sat Dec 18, 2004 4:03 pm; edited 1 time in total
Joined: Apr 17, 2004 Posts: 984 Location: Tulsa, Ok
Posted: Mon Jun 14, 2004 10:17 am Post subject: more
"Police said the terrorists hit Tali Hatuel as she drove, causing her car to swerve from the road, then approached the car and executed her and her children at close range."
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