What is going to be the main energy source of the future
Sun wind hydro nuclear coal hydrogen
80%
[ 4 ]
conservation miracle
20%
[ 1 ]
Total Votes : 5
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Message
Allhydrogen Coal
Joined: Aug 14, 2006 Posts: 3
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:10 am Post subject: There is an alternative to oil
After attending the conference yesterday, I left with my thoughts intact, of a group that is talking about soloutions to the oil crises with no real alternative. Oil is finite-hydrogen is infinite (another 2-3 billion years.) Hydrogen has 3 times the btu of of natural gas per pound, 6 times of gasoline. Hydrogen does NOT produce a nano ounce of greenhouse gases. Is this group here to promote oil and coal, as I hear a switch from bus-to electric rail. Unless that rail is running on 100% wind energy, the greenhouse from a k/watt of electricity is more damaging than the equivilent fuel. Folks, the hydrogen movement is all about making oil obsolete-if you can use an abundent renewable fuel source, oil will stay in the middle east and central asia and Bush's war/crusade will end. Big oil fears hydrogen, it puts them out of business-they keep the technology on the shelf for future-till they can milk every penny of profit from oil, then will introduce it in 2025 or so. Iceland is melting, the eco system is so far out of balance due to the greed of the oil carterl that we must do something now today. We have hydrogen fuel cell technology right now ready to power homes and vehicles. If anyone is interested, visit www.allh2.com for more education and the future.
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 6:54 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
miraculix wrote:
Dearest Allhydrogen!
Hydrogen is NOT A SOURCE OF FUEL, it is an energy carrier.
The energy stored in hydrogen has to come from somewhere else.
There are plenty threads on this already.
Do a simple search on this site and your H20 pipedreams will go up in flames.
Cheers mate
Why does hydrogen run a propane or natural gas generator, stove or any appliance with NO carbon air emmissions. It seems your hung up in destruction of the eco system to much. hydrogen is produced in a elctrolysis process that uses no external source of energy to create, no carbon used in the process. It is forever, h2o vapor and renewable. It can be used to recover your "tar" sands in Canada, which is a environmental global warming disaster. sorry mate, but whether it be a fuel or an energy carrier, hydrogen has the most BTU per pound than any other source of energy.
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:08 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Laughs_Last wrote:
Allhydrogen wrote:
hydrogen is produced in a elctrolysis process that uses no external source of energy to create, no carbon used in the process.
False.
Electrolysis requires an external source of electricity. Electricity must be obtained from somewhere else.
Not to mention there is a loss of energy in both processes, making you use twice as much energy as you gain. The only way that H is viable is with an abundance of energy or a source of H. The first could be with nuclear or renewables (wind, solar, geotherm). But that does nothing really since it would be smarter and more efficient to just to the electricity to power your car instead of losing power by doing electrolysis.
The second is idiotic because you don't rid yourself of the fossil-fuel problem since you need fossil fuels to get the H.
Quite a conundrum. _________________ I want to put out the fires of Hell, and burn down the rewards of Paradise. They block the way to God. I do not want to worship from fear of punishment or for the promise of reward, but simply for the love of God. - Rabia
Joined: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 1189 Location: Madison,Wisconsin
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:15 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Yeah sorry bud, I know it sounds like a good idea, but the simple matter is, where do you get the hydrogen? If your answer is electrolisis, yep, it costs more energy to produce than you get in terms of comparison. If you have an abundance of electricity, and want liquid fuel, it's not bad.
Not going to work though as oil's full replacement. _________________ Azreal60
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:20 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
mekrob wrote:
Laughs_Last wrote:
Allhydrogen wrote:
hydrogen is produced in a elctrolysis process that uses no external source of energy to create, no carbon used in the process.
False.
Electrolysis requires an external source of electricity. Electricity must be obtained from somewhere else.
Not to mention there is a loss of energy in both processes, making you use twice as much energy as you gain. The only way that H is viable is with an abundance of energy or a source of H. The first could be with nuclear or renewables (wind, solar, geotherm). But that does nothing really since it would be smarter and more efficient to just to the electricity to power your car instead of losing power by doing electrolysis.
The second is idiotic because you don't rid yourself of the fossil-fuel problem since you need fossil fuels to get the H.
Quite a conundrum.
Apparently you have not visited the website to understand the process. When a fuel cell is added to a electolyte water soloution of sodium/magnesium chloride (seawater), a electrochemical reaction occurs creating an unlimited sourcer of hydrogen gas-no electricity or external source of power is used. Education is most important, as there are more hydrogen technolgies coming out of the labroatory. Have you ever heard of the "cold fusion" oprocess?
The most important benefit of using hydrogen , is that no greenhouse gases, no military for wars to secure a "cheep" source of energy to destroy teh eco system. Truth passes 3 stages-ridicule, violently opposed and accepted as self evident.
Joined: Jan 03, 2005 Posts: 1185 Location: western Wisconsin
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 7:22 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
The best (only?) reasonable use of hydrogen fuel cells, in my opinion, is to replace lead-acid storage batteries in off-grid or off-peak electrical systems that use solar and/or wind generated electricity. And that depends on better, cheaper, more efficient hydrogen generators (electrolysis units) and fuel cells. Of course, if some major "breakthrough" in battery technology comes along, different batteries may do the job.
But hydrogen is just another way to store electricity and use it later!
Joined: Aug 13, 2004 Posts: 1185 Location: Richmond, VA, Pale Blue Dot
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 8:38 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Allhydrogen wrote:
Apparently you have not visited the website to understand the process. When a fuel cell is added to a electolyte water soloution of sodium/magnesium chloride (seawater), a electrochemical reaction occurs creating an unlimited sourcer of hydrogen gas-no electricity or external source of power is used. Education is most important, as there are more hydrogen technolgies coming out of the labroatory. Have you ever heard of the "cold fusion" oprocess?
The most important benefit of using hydrogen , is that no greenhouse gases, no military for wars to secure a "cheep" source of energy to destroy teh eco system. Truth passes 3 stages-ridicule, violently opposed and accepted as self evident.
Well, I went to the site and it says that they take 100 gallons of sea water and, using an external energy source (yup), they create a block of magnesium and aluminum. Then to use the hydrogen that is attached to the block, it is attached to a stainless steel cathode, and the end-user submerses it in sea water, which releases h2 until it corrodes (gets used up). But you still have to create the block in the first place and then get it and sea water to where you need it.
Sounds like EROEI < 1. _________________ "If you are a real seeker after truth, it's necessary that at least once in your life you doubt all things as far as possible"-Rene Descartes
"When you have excluded the impossible, whatever remains however improbable must be the truth"-Sherlock Holmes
Last edited by turmoil on Tue Aug 15, 2006 6:29 pm; edited 4 times in total
Joined: May 08, 2006 Posts: 62 Location: Barrie, Ontario, Canada
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:32 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Personal opinion is that this technology may be useful if the hydrogen cell was plugged into a windmill overnight (off-peak hours) and used to store this energy. But Allhydrogen, to just get the energy to produce hydrogen is a negative producer. Proven over and over. Ballard power systems have been trying to produce a net positive for a couple decades. I was with one of the brokerage houses that put together their seed money a couple decades ago. Then we had no idea of peak oil or really that hydrogen was a negative energy producing technology. And Ballard still gets positive press from those that don't understand. Just like the oil companies, it's all about the money.
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 9:58 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Guys, I think you are misunderstanding Allhydrogen. The elctro-chemical reaction in the water solution he references actually creates a wormhole to the surface of the sun. The heat vaporizes the sodium/magnesium chromide creating a pressure differential which sucks the hydrogen of the sun through the wormhole. The water is then used to cool the hydrogen. So it evaporates and bubbles up with the hydrogen that came through the wormhole. So it only looks like electolysis to an outside observer. But it does not, in fact, require an external energy source because it imports the hydrogen directly from a virtually limitless source...the sun!
Joined: Oct 23, 2005 Posts: 1800 Location: East of Eden
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:20 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Sorry, Allhydrogen, but I'm afraid you're going to get slammed a little for your post. The trouble is that all of this has been gone over so many times already. What you want to do is lurk on the site for a few months, reading and learning, before you start posting. Some of us can be a little rough but there's a lot of good information here.
Hydrogen can be useful for vehicles needing to drive longer distances, but it is not an energy source for us. Not on this planet. _________________ "If a path to the better there be, it begins with a full look at the worst." — Thomas Hardy
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 10:28 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
these little phrases like "Oil is finite-hydrogen is infinite" or "hydrogen is the most abundant element on earth" etc. are such rhetorical trash.
you want to run your automobile fleet on hydrogen? first try making a campfire out of a pile of ashes, because it is exactly the same thing. water is burnt hydrogen. expended. depleted. finished. you can only reconstitute it by adding energy... and more than you can get back out.
the hydrogen people know that too... look out for snake-oil salesmen ready to prey on your noble dreams.
and it would be nice if this were true too: "the eco system is so far out of balance due to the greed of the oil carterl (sic)." after all, who doen't want to hate a big fat-cat businessman. but it just isn't true.
it is "out of balance" as they say, because of you and me and everyone else who eats, shits, and breathes.
what's anyone here doing still talking about hydrogen anyway? it's so last year.
edit: because i accidentally wrote "sake-oil" which sounds pretty good.
Posted: Mon Aug 14, 2006 11:13 am Post subject: Re: There is an alternative to oil
Whew... you folks are brutal...
Tesla's frozen head concures... hydrogen power...isn't.
I must report to my Chinese handlers at once. _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
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