How then, do we move backwards? How does a society, with most of the people having no clue of future events, move from being dependent on a vast and intertwined network of goods and services produced by the indigenous people of whereever, to a local resource and renewable energy based society, and do so in the timeframe available (20-30 years using the most liberal extimates, 10-20 with resonable estimates, 5-10 with worst case scenarios), all the while prices on everything increasing, world politics getting more militaristic, governments continuously reducing civil liberties, shortages of goods on the market and weather patterns resembling bad Hollywood movies?
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 12:07 pm Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
"Historia me absolvera" was the conclusion of a flaming speech by F. Castro about 1967. Maybe history will absolve him, as Cuba is better prepared than most contries for a future with limited resources and a functioning legal/social/medical/educational system - dictatorship or not.
During the "period especial" from '89-ca. '99 the Cuban society managed to scrape by with relaxed laws for private initiative and an extremely harsh regime against thievery (12yrs for stealing cattle) and other forms of unsocial behaviour, including opposition to the regime. The police precence was, and still is omnipresent. Almost every Cuban I have met have a little business on the side, raising pigs in the backyard, keeping hens, vegetable garden, making clothes, and bartering everything that they make or what they can do - including pretty girls selling services to tourists.
The country would in my opinion have crumbled was it not for tourism, remittances from exiles and all the money earned by the pretty young girls.
However, Cubans are probably better prepared for PO than most, with the past and present knowledge of how to get by with next to nothing, and still have a society.
Joined: Oct 18, 2004 Posts: 1715 Location: kiwibush
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:23 pm Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
rwwff wrote:
Denny wrote:
For all intents and purposes, Cuba has been living in its own "post peak oil" world for about 15 years now and has adapted. Not all too pleasantly, but the population has survived and endured. It has not been the nightmare or roaming thugs and apocolypse that some to dwell on in this forum.
So the government hires all the "roaming thug" types for police and soldiers. I don't see how thats revolutionary. Its just an organized version of the same sort of extortion that might go on here; except it removes from the populace the opportunity to fight back.
Fight back...what fight back...see any fighting back going down in the current mess we are sliding into? I see retail frenzied apathy...yeah...as folks turn to shopping to hide from reality..............
remember, if things go to plan according to many of the apocalyptic posts in here, not only will we have no government, but it's going to be each man for himslef and I pity women. _________________ Bugger me, I hear oil's runnin out mate!
Joined: Aug 14, 2005 Posts: 354 Location: Mississippi Delta
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:27 pm Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
Agree with oddone. Cuba might not be as free as most of us would prefer, but they have to be given credit for pulling through some tough times in a way that probably benefited the most, all things considered. Looking at the state of our civil liberties just a few years into the GWOT, I shudder to think what we might be in for when things really get tough. And the US has never had a superpower a few miles off our coast plotting to bring down our government, or a bunch of exile terrorists trying to do the same.
Joined: Apr 28, 2006 Posts: 2897 Location: East Texas
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 2:47 pm Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
americandream wrote:
remember, if things go to plan according to many of the apocalyptic posts in here, not only will we have no government, but it's going to be each man for himslef and I pity women.
My mom shoots well, my wife shoots very well, my daughter will shoot well. There is nothing preventing any woman in Texas from going down to the sporting goods shop and buying a pistol and taking it home today. Within a couple months or so, she could have a permit to legally drag the things along with her anywhere she wants to go.
I pity men who think this is the 1600's; lots of them are going to end up leaking. _________________ abundance fleeting
men falling like hungry leaves
decay masters all
Posted: Tue Aug 08, 2006 3:21 pm Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
oddone wrote:
During the "period especial" from '89-ca. '99 the Cuban society managed to scrape by with relaxed laws for private initiative and an extremely harsh regime against thievery (12yrs for stealing cattle) and other forms of unsocial behaviour, including opposition to the regime. The police precence was, and still is omnipresent. Almost every Cuban I have met have a little business on the side, raising pigs in the backyard, keeping hens, vegetable garden, making clothes, and bartering everything that they make or what they can do - including pretty girls selling services to tourists. The country would in my opinion have crumbled was it not for tourism, remittances from exiles and all the money earned by the pretty young girls.
Lets not forget that in the time of rapid growth in the North American west that many crimes were much more harshly punished than today, as their impact was worse. Rustling and horse thievery for instance. In a sense, that would be similar to what Cuba does or did during the special period.
And, while Cuba is a police state, much of that is unrelated to the economic state and more related to the paranoia Castro harbored to non-Communist philosophies. It is an orderly police state, people are not arrested for unknown crimes.
With or without foreign income sources, the reality is that Cuba domestically produced most of its food and scraped by with a minimal use of fossil fuel.
The United States would also have a substantial cash inflow during any form of fuel shortage from such things as intellectual properties, and let's not forget that the U.S. does produce a large amount of energy domestically, though small as a percentage of its present day use, under times of duress it could get by to a significant extent on its own, likely better than most of the world. Not comfortably that is for sure. And, no doubt you'd see a swing to convert large industry and power generation back to coal. (Cough.) And, for sure a big swing back to mass transit.
Let's not forget that the mass of citizens in the U.S. got by in WW2 with a rationed amount of gasoline, approximately 3 or 4 gallons per week. The shortage of rubber probably did more to limit driving that the shortage of gasoline did. I'm pretty sure you didn't see any air conditioners in use in offices during the war either. Yet, the important things in life carried on. When did comfort become an American value? Our ancestors would be ashamed of this attitude.
It would interesting to see an "energy use inventory" done to discern what amount of energy use is for necessity and what amount is for luxury.
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 12:19 am Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
The American embargo is what is hurting Cuba. Once the embargo is gone Cuba will be a economic powerhouse. I see Castro as the man that brought cuba out of the stoneage. Before Castro only a small percent of the people lived the "good life" and most people could not read. Cuba's literacy rate is at 97% https://www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/print/cu.html if you look at the the other countries in Latin America Cuba is doing good or even better for a "communist" state. Communism is not about oppression look at a ant colony and communism does not have to be "evil" Even most of europe is now socialist and Canadians to our north all has free health care.
Those people in miami should be ashame of themselves for cheering when Castro had surgery.
Running out of oil does not mean things will be chaotic, and cuba shows how they adapted. Humans was able to live without oil before and we will do it again. America does export alot of food because we have modern farming equipment, so those that depended America will have to adapt or die. The Cubans are eating more healthty now because less meat is available. They eat simple stuff like rice, beans, fruits, vegatables, and fish. America is rich because it has lots of natural resources and our organization. Cuba is more organize but has few natural resources. http://www.globalpublicmedia.com/articles/657
Posted: Wed Aug 09, 2006 10:30 am Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
Don't confuse the socialism in mixed economy, free and socially responcible democratic countries in Europe/ CDN with the communist dictatorship on Cuba. Visit north European countries, then Cuba, and then you can make a comparison. If you still hail FC as a success, and blame all of Cubas shortcomings on US, you are either ignorant or a die-hard communist. In either case it is no point discussing with you.
Joined: Aug 07, 2005 Posts: 302 Location: Columbia, MO
Posted: Fri Aug 11, 2006 2:51 am Post subject: Re: Sustainable agriculture in Cuba
One big advantage Cuban agriculture has is a virtually year-round growing season. Their yield/acre can be fairly low and they'd still have plenty of food.
Interesting they're not jumping on the ethanol bandwagon - says something, doesn't it? _________________ Carpe Scrotum!
Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1657 Location: Republic of Texas
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 2:46 pm Post subject: "Hands Off Cuba" Whahuh?
In this post they beg for a petition to demand the U.S. keep "Hands Off Cuba." link
What the heck is the U.S. doing to Cuba? I know we don't trade with them, but other than that, are we about to invade them or something? _________________ Conform . Consume . Obey .
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:12 pm Post subject: Re: "Hands Off Cuba" Whahuh?
Sure. We're planning on invading, just as soon as Castro dies. No doubt we'll accomplish this with two retired state troopers and an annoyed construction worker.
This will be done because Cuba has the most advanced technology in the world, and the U.S. wishes to tap into that vast store of intellectual capital. Also, Cuba has immense reserves of '57 Chevy parts. The benefits to whoever controls these are incalculable.
Oh, yeah. And the cigars. Don't forget the cigars.
(sigh) (Obvious sarcasm, most certainly NOT aimed at Mr. TommyJefferson.) _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 3:58 pm Post subject: Re: "Hands Off Cuba" Whahuh?
Jack wrote:
Sure. We're planning on invading, just as soon as Castro dies. No doubt we'll accomplish this with two retired state troopers and an annoyed construction worker.
that was so funny i spit my water out on the keyboard. _________________ planes are being highjacked again on the glorious fifth anniversary of 9/11,-WE DON'T GIVE A FU** ABOUT YOUR MODERN WORLD.- It seems your people did not learn anything from the Holocaust.-miki the terrorist
Joined: Sep 06, 2004 Posts: 5315 Location: Smalltown New Zealand
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:13 pm Post subject: Re: "Hands Off Cuba" Whahuh?
nwildmand wrote:
Jack wrote:
Sure. We're planning on invading, just as soon as Castro dies. No doubt we'll accomplish this with two retired state troopers and an annoyed construction worker.
that was so funny i spit my water out on the keyboard.
So what happened at the Bay of Pigs? _________________ "Complex problems have simple, easy to understand, wrong answers." - Henry Louis Mencken
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:22 pm Post subject: Re: "Hands Off Cuba" Whahuh?
rogerhb wrote:
So what happened at the Bay of Pigs?
An ill-conceived and poorly executed attempt by brave but unsupported troops.
The outcome was entirely predicatable, considering that the Cuban exiles had 1,500 troops and Castro had 51,000. _________________ Dieoff. Fun to watch. Better with hot buttered popcorn!
Joined: Sep 02, 2005 Posts: 2847 Location: In a Nigerian compound surrounded by mighty dignataries
Posted: Mon Aug 21, 2006 5:35 pm Post subject: Re: "Hands Off Cuba" Whahuh?
Jack wrote:
rogerhb wrote:
So what happened at the Bay of Pigs?
An ill-conceived and poorly executed attempt by brave but unsupported troops.
The outcome was entirely predicatable, considering that the Cuban exiles had 1,500 troops and Castro had 51,000.
I understand this time around they will use a new form of Psyops in this operation:
Cuban music at 110 decibels.... _________________ In other words, it's a huge sh*t sandwich, and we're all gonna have to take a bite.-from Full Metal Jacket
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