Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:03 pm Post subject: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Since I have gotten so much guff about this issue, I am going to try to level the playing field.
In this thread we can discuss the obvious potential and feasiblity of producing liquid biofuels on a small scale basis without government subsidies and massive petroleum infusions of energy.
Many think I am anti-biofuels.
Hardly..
Montequest wrote:
While biofuels have great potential and I support their development, they will only replace or supplement existing liquids fuels on a small scale.
And let me add, "and sustainable basis."
The math just does not support a large scale operation. This has been demonstrated to be factual numerous times (using the pro-ethanol/positive EROEI data) which is why the Mother of all Biofuels thread was started in the first place. Many posters do not read the threads that have discussed this issue at length, and it has become tedious for all to constantly revisit the crucial points of the debate and refute it again and again.
There are those that disagree. Fine, that is what the Mother of all Biofuels debate threads are for.
Please, do it there, and not here. I can't censor you and I won't, but be civil and professional and remember the topic.
The world of lurkers are reading.
Mankind already consumes about 48% of the earth's primary productivity. We had better be careful how much more of it we try to take from all other livings things (in an effort to continue "happy motoring") who also depend upon it for their existence. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Wed May 17, 2006 11:28 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:23 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
WEll, as Thomas Edison the third once said.
Try it and see if it works.
make a small batch of ethanol. But you have to process it and distill it using ethanol only as the heat source to distill off the ethanol.
Let us see if you can even get it to work.
take pictures and place them up here and tell us how many gallons of ethanol you made and how much it took to distill the batch.
That will be the key. _________________ ___________________________
WHEN THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND...GET OUT OF THE WAY!
Using evil to further good makes one evil
Doubt everything but the TRUTH
This posted information is not permissible to be used
by anyone who has ever met a lawyer
Last edited by grabby on Tue May 16, 2006 5:25 pm; edited 1 time in total
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:32 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Interesting.
I think it behooves us to ask our small grocery stores (You don't shop at CHAIN STORES DO YA!?!)
about which vegetables are grown locally, and refuse to buy any grown overseas.
this transport is killing our farmers, even if we have to pay more, we shoulod buy local.
aLSO french fry oil as alternate fuel.
Make a batch of organodiesel and keep track of your time and costs inculding heating the fuel. how much did you make? This would probaboly be money maker as long as there is french fry oil.
(For you) _________________ ___________________________
WHEN THE BLIND LEAD THE BLIND...GET OUT OF THE WAY!
Using evil to further good makes one evil
Doubt everything but the TRUTH
This posted information is not permissible to be used
by anyone who has ever met a lawyer
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 5:37 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Yes I am a big proponent of wind, solar, hydro and biofuels as well. All local in scale. It can provide "work" tending the crops along with local food and battery maintainance and production as well. Everything locally owned and non-centralized. Each owning their own decentralized energy and energy conduit. It is excellent for freedom and recreation as well. Never depending on ponzi. Small efficient cars are required however a small amount of work rigs are needed for utilitarian purposes.
decentralized=freedom.
actually an area out here where I am buying land is beginning to do this. They ahve low pop density and constant wind int he valley. Theya re building wind farms and solar is next. Extra land for biofuels as well.
like you said these areas will fare well. Other areas just go extinct.
simple stuff here.
must however base all developement on thermal mass principles.
Joined: Nov 21, 2004 Posts: 579 Location: ~170ft/lbs@0rpm (on my bike)
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:15 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Holy mother of god, where do you come up with these numbers!???
MonteQuest wrote:
The math just does not support a large scale operation. This has been demonstrated to be factual numerous times which is why the Mother of all Biofuels thread was started in the first place.
Since we're here, you should cut and paste your refutation/s, for posterity of course. I've never heard of any refutation of the potential of regional biofuels, from ethanol to biodiesel to the simplest of them all, VO.
I'm not suggesting that biofuels can continue the local use of the of 1/3rd of the world's oil supply by 1/22nd of it's population (the US). I am however stating that combined with efficient energy policies they can allow every single human on the planet to continue "normal" activity. Obviously this will not entail individual personal transport in vehicles large enough to seat 4-12 and tow 2-10k pounds, it will be in vehicles actually designed for personal transportation and minimal cargo, which the vast majority of vehicle miles consist of.
MonteQuest wrote:
Mankind already consumes about 48% of the earth's primary productivity. We had better be careful how much more of it we try to take from all other livings things (in an effort to continue "happy motoring") who also depend upon it for their existence.
48% eh? Since plants make up ~90% of the planet's total biomass, that means we consume about half of all plants or a little less than half of the entire Earth's biomass....
How? Crops are only a few percent of the total biomass of our planet, where's this other 40+% coming from? If half of all photosythetic plant life was being consumed by us, I think it'd be a bit more obvious.
I'm sorry, but this is just insane. How can you post this nonsense and then ask for professional discussion? WTH! _________________ "Humankind cannot gain anything without first giving something in return. To obtain, something of equal value must be lost. "
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:47 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
grabby wrote:
make a small batch of ethanol. But you have to process it and distill it using ethanol only as the heat source to distill off the ethanol.
{edit: Just because large scale intensive ethanol production may have an EROEI<1, doesn' t mean you can't make it work on a smallscale}
Can someone not use wood to fire the still and make moonshine as long as he doesn't cut down the trees and reduce habitat faster than it can renew?
{edit: this was struck to reflect my muddled thinking}
2nd Law of Thermodynamics precludes even entertaining your suggestion. You can't get more energy out of a system than you put into it.
{edit: if the EROEI>1 you can.} _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Last edited by MonteQuest on Thu May 18, 2006 11:32 pm; edited 2 times in total
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 6:51 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
grabby wrote:
Interesting.
I think it behooves us to ask our small grocery stores (You don't shop at CHAIN STORES DO YA!?!)
about which vegetables are grown locally, and refuse to buy any grown overseas.
this transport is killing our farmers, even if we have to pay more, we should buy local.
A bit off-topic but a good point overall. Yes, I am speaking out for people to start supporting the local produce stands more so they can ramp up local production. _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 7:08 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
pilferage wrote:
Holy mother of god, where do you come up with these numbers!???
Our first member to not be civil and respect my call to not start this debate in this thread.
From the pro-ethanol data. Look at the numerous posts I have made on ethanol which not one has even been refuted nor even attempted.
Do the math on the US ethanol production alone. It will replace .8 of 1% of our auto energy fuel needs in 2012 at a cost of 18 billion in subsidies alone to the tune of $4.14/gallon plus $2.86 wholesale=$7/gallon.
Do a search on my name.
Quote:
48% eh? Since plants make up ~90% of the planet's total biomass, that means we consume about half of all plants or a little less than half of the entire Earth's biomass....
Google the question.
Here's just one link from Harper's Magazine
Quote:
Scientists have a name for the total amount of plant mass created by Earth in a given year, the total budget for life. They call it the planet's "primary productivity." There have been two efforts to figure out how that productivity is spent, one by a group at Stanford University, the other an independent accounting by the biologist Stuart Pimm. Both conclude that we humans, a single species among millions, consume about 40 percent of Earth's primary productivity, 40 percent of all there is.
Joined: Dec 16, 2004 Posts: 706 Location: Santa Monica, CA
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:24 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
MonteQuest wrote:
Google the question.
Here's just one link from Harper's Magazine
Quote:
Scientists have a name for the total amount of plant mass created by Earth in a given year, the total budget for life. They call it the planet's "primary productivity." There have been two efforts to figure out how that productivity is spent, one by a group at Stanford University, the other an independent accounting by the biologist Stuart Pimm. Both conclude that we humans, a single species among millions, consume about 40 percent of Earth's primary productivity, 40 percent of all there is.
You would think that we could simply end the debate and the delusions about biofuels right there. If that number was 5% instead of 40% it still would present liquid biofuels as a dead end. And you would think that environmentalist would absorb that estimate and conclude that biofuels are potentially the most dangerous large industrialized energy enterprise ever conceived by man.
Why are so many convinced that biofuels are the panacea when we have so many other options that are far better.
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 8:44 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Man's use of Net Primary Productivity from a more scientific source, a lecture at the University of Michigan:
More "nonsense" as pilferage puts it. Haven't people learned yet that I do my homework?
Quote:
The total for the high estimate is 58.1 Pg of NPP used, co-opted, or lost. We also must add the potential NPP to the world estimated NPP before we compute the fraction appropriated by humans. This gives us 58.1/149.6, or nearly 40% of potential terrestrial production (about 25 % of terrestrial + aquatic production). Caveat: These estimates are based on best available data and are approximate. They probably give the correct order of magnitude.
And to corrobarate my point about using too much of it in my initial post:
Quote:
(d) Human "carrying capacity" on earth is hard to estimate, because it depends upon affluence of a population and the technology supporting that population. But at present levels of affluence and technology, a population 50 to 100% larger than we have today would push our use of terrestrial NPP to well over 50% of the available production, and the attending degradation of ecosystems on earth (e.g., air and water pollution) would be of major concern. Thus the limits to unchecked growth must be very near. Notice that the lower we "feed" on the trophic chain, the more efficient the web of life becomes -- eating animals that eat animals that eat plants is a very inefficient use of solar energy.
Population growth alone, much less a ramp up of biofuel production on a large scale, will push us past the environmental sink limit. Remember what I am always saying about Solutions in Isolation? Biofuels is one of them.
You will find the data quoted at the bottom of the page linked to.
Link _________________ A Saudi saying, "My father rode a camel. I drive a car. My son flies a jet-plane. His son will ride a camel."
Live in Arizona? Check out: http://sustainablearizona.org and read my blog.
Joined: Oct 03, 2004 Posts: 522 Location: Washington State
Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 11:43 pm Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Alright already, Monte...you yourself said to keep the large scale stuff in the other thread. Let us idiots who don't know when to give up have this one.
You all have to remember ethanol and biofuels are not synonyms.
Ethanol stills take a bunch of water and energy. Biodiesel from WVO & SVO take much less energy. While risky, some people even run SVO directly.
So you want to have a sustainable farm? Likely oilseed crops produce about 100 gal/acre. But you need a crusher.
So the likely answer is get a few neighbors together and have a shared crushing operation. Use the meal to feed your cows. Use the biodiesel to run the crusher, a genset for your other electrical needs, and your motor fuels.
So you live in a city. Your options are much more limited. A metro area of 3-400K population produces about 20,000 gal WVO from restaurants per week. If you can't get it from the restaurant directly, you have to buy it from the local "grease mafia" They are pretty proud of their "product" It will cost you 12-20 cents/pound. Then you need to make sure you don't run afoul of local regulators while you are making your biodiesel.
Monte:
What, if anything, have you heard about native oilseed plants in the southwest? I've heard there is one that looks promising, but I can't imagine a "sustainable" way of cultivating arid land crops.
Some foreign aid organization set up a model for sustainable oilseed production. Of course, the people using the model have no cars!
There is little sustainable about my biodiesel operation. I get used oil from restaurants (corn, soy and canola from the midwest), buy methanol (made from natural gas) and potassium hydroxide (imported from third world country) But I use non petroleum fuel......don't I?
Biofuel mandates will start an industry making locally grown oilseed crops available. New catalyst technology will minimize need for imported methanol and lye.
If you want to make your own biodiesel, you should get in line now. _________________ This is where everybody puts profound words written by another...or not so profound words written by themselves
Highlander 2007
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 12:15 am Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
highlander wrote:
Alright already, Monte...you yourself said to keep the large scale stuff in the other thread. Let us idiots who don't know when to give up have this one.
Well, I had a choice; split pilferage's post to the other thread and respond there or here. I asked quite nicely for people to not start a debate on large scale stuff here.
Quote:
Monte:
What, if anything, have you heard about native oilseed plants in the southwest?
Jojoba has been talked about for many years. The plant has a high ability to survive in a desert environment. 40 ' long tap root.
Quote:
Natural stands of jojoba occur in areas that receive 3 to 18 in. of precipitation annually.
Joined: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 1189 Location: Madison,Wisconsin
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 1:00 am Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
Interesting, I really am thinking that one of the first things I should do before anything else is learn to make biodiesel. It seems to me that on a local sustainable level this is one of the things that could preserve a great deal of quality of life. I saw some nice stuff on how biodiesel is actually produced on another thread. I can't remember which one unfortunately. My question is, are there different types of biodiesel, and are there types that are easier for home grown folks to produce? Also, some info on actual production on the small scale would be very helpful. I'm not a chem expert, so biodiesel for dummies might be in order. _________________ Azreal60
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:52 am Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
MonteQuest wrote:
grabby wrote:
make a small batch of ethanol. But you have to process it and distill it using ethanol only as the heat source to distill off the ethanol.
2nd Law of Thermodynamics precludes even entertaining your suggestion. You can't not get more energy out of a system than you put into it.
Aargh! The suggestion of burning ethanol to make ethanol does not run into a 2nd law problem.
The plants store X units of energy from the sun. You add Y units of energy in the form of heat and some processing work. You get out an amount of energy Z. Of course there are lots of details involved relating to specific crops and methods that will determine X, Y, and Z. However there is no fundemental thermodynamic issue with Z being bigger then Y.
Joined: Jun 26, 2004 Posts: 1189 Location: Madison,Wisconsin
Posted: Wed May 17, 2006 5:54 am Post subject: Re: Renewable, Sustainable, (smallscale) Biofuels Discussion
And your adding to the fact your way off topic, which is really annoying. If I wanted to read about large scale biofuels use, I would wade thru that monstrosity that seems to be perpetuating by the day. I came here to find out what can be done on the small scale. Anyone with some pointers or answers to my earlier post? _________________ Azreal60
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