I think this is the beginnings of an economy based on perpetual growth and fossil fuel energy running headlong into geological energy constraints. Basically I see an undulatory downward path for the rest of my life. From here out, I think any rallies in our economic condition are going to be met with spiking commodity prices that knock us right back down.
This little honda generates 86kW, enough to power your homes if you need it.
I've read other links where Honda is working on using solar energy to create hydrogen gas. If they are successful, then we really do have renewable energy and our problems are solved.
Combine this with Thermal Depolymerisation Process that creates oil from organic matter, solar, wind, hydro, coal, and nuclear energy, we have more than sufficent power resources.
Joined: Oct 04, 2004 Posts: 243 Location: the Village
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 8:14 am Post subject: re:
And don't you worry when the usual w*nkers try to claim you are wrong, they only exist to serve evil thoughtforms and demi-urge 'gods' and use the FACT that thoughts=reality to keep on thinking up rubbish versions of future possibilities.
Survivial of the fittest minds.
Nanotechnology - the real kind not that weird bullcrap variant that some people mention that involves nanobots going mad - can build up any molecule or element needed, if that doesn't exist already in the 'doesn't officially exist' vaults, then it soon will. Atom stacking - no need to mine ever again.
Think about it people - how exactly does a technology like atom-stacking get turned into some idea about making artificiallyintelligent nanobots that will do certain tasks? Because the same type of consciousness that botches up everything else is allowed to run riot and think of evil or stupid applications for technology.
I can think of ways to stack atoms that don't involve geneticly engineering some tiny machinelike bot to stack them for me. _________________ the frogurt is also cursed
You and I are not engineers, are we? So how can we answer this question. We can't.
Well actually I am. Chemical engineer. There are a lot of them on this forum, which should tell you something.
Quote:
But try answering this question. Why are companies like Honda spending billions on this technology if something simple as platinum costs prevent mass commercialization? Don't you think they from the outset have analyzed all these problems and have solved them?
Because there are tremendous loads of money available. Hydrogen is the buzzword at the moment. If you do something with hydrogen, which faintly sounds applicable, you can collect millions in subsidies.
Besides having a hydrogen project has very good commercial value. Even if the remainder of the cars you produce are gas-guzzling, archaic polluting machines, the general public will value your company as a high-tech company which cares about the environment.
Shell has thousands of filling stations. But there is only one that gets the attention. The one which serves hydrogen. A big subsidized commercial.
Why does Honda build a human robot, which has no application whatsoever? Because it sells. Because it shows what the company is capable of.
Quote:
How do you know that all fuel cells require platinum? Perhaps Honda has created a more advanced model that doesn't need platinum? Two years ago, Honda was working on problems where their fuel cell cars could not start in zero degree weather. Today, they've solved that problem and it now works in sub-zero weather.
More than 150 years after Grove's discovery, fuel cells that operate near room temperature still contain the precious metal platinum. One goal of an ambitious fuel cell R&D program is to replace the expensive platinum with much cheaper materials. No one thinks this objective will be easy to attain - after all, nothing better has been found in 150 years!
http://abruna.chem.cornell.edu/fuelcell/what%20is%20a%20fuel%20cell.html
Quote:
Relax, and please let the professionals handle it. These experts have years and years of training. They know all these questions that you and I may have, and more, and they've solved them.
That is a lot of platinum. Especially since the platinum industry has not been able to fulfill the current demand. Since 1997 the market is working in a deficit. As a result of that the prices have doubled since 2001.
http://www.implats.co.za/files/PDAC_March_2004.pdf
Look, hydrogen can cure all our problems. That is, if we find a feasible way to produce hydrogen and a way to convert it back to electricity.
Maybe we will find that in the future, although the chances are getting slimmer by the day. The hydrogen research has already consumed a lot more research funding than the Manhattan project and has not delivered anything workable yet.
But, in any way, before we find those solutions, we should not sit back, relax and take 'the hydrogen economy' for granted.
Joined: May 31, 2004 Posts: 920 Location: Brno, Czech rep., EU
Posted: Sat Oct 23, 2004 3:23 pm Post subject:
Quote:
This little honda generates 86kW, enough to power your homes if you need it.
Dontworryaboutpeakoil, this Honda doesn't produce energy! We need to provide energy (and about 2-3x more than just 86kW) to create hydrogen first. Fuel cells have efficiency just above 50% and hydrogen production is not 100% efficient process either..
In fact, 86kW is far far far far more than your house needs. Unless you are using electricity for heating, you would do fine with 0.3-5kW for most time..
So now, you need alternative sources of energy that would produce more energy than we were recovering from oil so far.. And we need to create infrastructure, factories, distribution system .. We will do it over time, I have no doubt about it, I'm not sure whether hydrogen is going to be solution, but we will turn to something else eventually (synthetic fuels, biodiesel etc. seems to be more logical and cheap solution than fuel cells).. but this alternative solution is gonna cost us. It won't be as convenient as oil, and probably too expensive for many of us..
Just think about it. We've got thousands of satellites up there providing navigation, weather, and entertainment. These satellites...ARE NOT RUN ON OIL!! They're run on solar energy.
So the point is, if we can get satellites to function without OIL, we can also function without oil. It wil just take new ideas and time.
I'm sold on the Air Car. Seriously, what a great idea!
Did the satellites magically get built and beamed into orbit. NOW they are consuming no oil to power themselves.
Before those satellites got into orbit a whole load of oil was expended in research, development, construction and their delivery into orbit. You have to look at the bigger picture unfortunately. _________________ "Once the game is over, the king and the pawn go back in the same box."
-Italian Proverb
Relax, and please let the professionals handle it. These experts have years and years of training. They know all these questions that you and I may have, and more, and they've solved them.
In what bunker is your "miracle weapon" hiding ???
This comment from you is the scariest piece of literature I have read from "optimists" in a long time...I don't run on BLIND FAITH, and neither should anyone else.
Vexed wrote:
Quote:
Apparently, there is a massive udder hanging from the sky and us peak oilers just need to look up and drink freely. Everything is fine. Everything is dandy.
Love it. _________________ With Love to all, and Malice to none.
"A people is conquered not when they lose a war, but when they adopt the song and customs of the enemy"
-Chacham S
Well actually I am. Chemical engineer. There are a lot of them on this forum, which should tell you something.
Good for you. Now, do you work on or know engineers who are working on the Honda Fuel Cell project? Or any other Fuel Cell project?
Can you tell us definitely that Platinum is required or are being used? Can you tell us definitely that they don't have other materials which might replace platinum?
Only answers that come directly from Honda or Daimler Chrysler is valid.
Quote:
Quote:
But try answering this question. Why are companies like Honda spending billions on this technology if something simple as platinum costs prevent mass commercialization? Don't you think they from the outset have analyzed all these problems and have solved them?
Because there are tremendous loads of money available. Hydrogen is the buzzword at the moment. If you do something with hydrogen, which faintly sounds applicable, you can collect millions in subsidies.
Besides having a hydrogen project has very good commercial value. Even if the remainder of the cars you produce are gas-guzzling, archaic polluting machines, the general public will value your company as a high-tech company which cares about the environment.
Shell has thousands of filling stations. But there is only one that gets the attention. The one which serves hydrogen. A big subsidized commercial.
Why does Honda build a human robot, which has no application whatsoever? Because it sells. Because it shows what the company is capable of.
Exactly. Honda is in the business of SELLING. Why would a company allocate resources to R&D to a technology they dont' believe can be commercialized? Why would they build working prototypes and lease them for real world testing? If they knew Fuel Cells could not be commericalized, they would not be doing any real world testing, would they?
Quote:
Quote:
How do you know that all fuel cells require platinum? Perhaps Honda has created a more advanced model that doesn't need platinum? Two years ago, Honda was working on problems where their fuel cell cars could not start in zero degree weather. Today, they've solved that problem and it now works in sub-zero weather.
More than 150 years after Grove's discovery, fuel cells that operate near room temperature still contain the precious metal platinum. One goal of an ambitious fuel cell R&D program is to replace the expensive platinum with much cheaper materials. No one thinks this objective will be easy to attain - after all, nothing better has been found in 150 years!
http://abruna.chem.cornell.edu/fuelcell/what%20is%20a%20fuel%20cell.html
Again, you don't work directly with Honda do you? They've made progress and improvements. 2 years ago, Fuel Cells wouldn't work in zero degree temperatures. Today they can. Since they are gearing their Fuel Cell cars for COMMERCIAL purposes, you can bet that they've solved the platinum issue.
Quote:
Quote:
Relax, and please let the professionals handle it. These experts have years and years of training. They know all these questions that you and I may have, and more, and they've solved them.
That is a lot of platinum. Especially since the platinum industry has not been able to fulfill the current demand. Since 1997 the market is working in a deficit. As a result of that the prices have doubled since 2001.
http://www.implats.co.za/files/PDAC_March_2004.pdf
Look, hydrogen can cure all our problems. That is, if we find a feasible way to produce hydrogen and a way to convert it back to electricity.
Maybe we will find that in the future, although the chances are getting slimmer by the day. The hydrogen research has already consumed a lot more research funding than the Manhattan project and has not delivered anything workable yet.
But, in any way, before we find those solutions, we should not sit back, relax and take 'the hydrogen economy' for granted.
[/quote]
Every day your life is in the hands of other people. You rely on the government, the police, the firefighters, the doctors and so on to provide the services you yourself cannot do. I'm not going to sit here and worry about things beyond my control. If the worst does come, and we are thrown back into the stone age as most of you are claiming, thats not something I can prevent.
I've been reading all this nonsense for almost a year now, and its still the same baloney.
PEAK OIL WILL NOT BE A PROBLEM
These groups of peak oilests rely on terribly biased information when presenting their case, which to me, spells nothing more than a hidden agenda.
Fuel cells will be part of the answer, and surprisingly enough, they failed to mention that platinum will be replaced by something else. In fact there's plenty of research going on right now to find a suitable replacement. The only reason they haven't replaced it right now, is because they are not mass produced, and there is no infrastructure setup to support them.
Do a search for non-platinum fuel cells on google and you come up with endless numbers of links. It will be replaced if it hasn't already.
What peak oilests don't tell you is that conventional oil production will peak someday in the next 10-15 years, but they fail to tell you that there is 3 times as much unconventional oil (tar sand, shale etc.) out there that has yet to be tapped. People will exploit that rather than starve my friends.
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:15 am Post subject:
Hydro wrote:
What peak oilests don't tell you is that conventional oil production will peak someday in the next 10-15 years, but they fail to tell you that there is 3 times as much unconventional oil (tar sand, shale etc.) out there that has yet to be tapped. People will exploit that rather than starve my friends.
And on and on...
Wow. Hydros back selling the same bill of goods.
Hydro: Your comments are all bogus. Many of us who are following the peak oil phenomena are not ignoring tar sands, as an example. Nor avoiding hydrogen fuel cells. Yet you have not once provided any systemic, end-to-end analysis that demonstrates how hydrogen fuel cells, tar sands, etc will replace cheap oil. The EIA has some great information on the current consumption of energy in the US. Show us how tar sands will meet our needs. Or Solar produce hydrogen (since making hydrogen from natural gas is a waste of natural gas).
I think you will find we have a problem.
And note that Shale Oil is not a source of energy right now. In your model, I think it permissible to introduce a slightly positive EROEI for shale oil. But you must incorporate the energy require to create the shale oil processing facilities, as well as the tar sands processing facilities.
Let us know what you find. Pointing to this or that source on the internet is not an answer. It's a start, but without the above model, your comments are slightly informative but very misleading.
Yep. Hydro is right, and proves my point that commercialization of Fuel Cells is a reality.
I did a google check for non-Platinum fuel cells, and I've gotten tons of links. Most of these links explore use of other materials than Platinum, or demonstrate ways to commercialize even Platinum based Fuel Cells.
Joined: Aug 10, 2004 Posts: 1104 Location: San Diego, CA, USA
Posted: Sun Oct 24, 2004 8:41 am Post subject:
dontworryaboutpeakoil wrote:
So you see, these naysayers and doom and gloomists are simply wrong. Hydrogen based Fuel Cells ARE the future for automobiles. And so are Air-Cars.
Would you feel embarrassed standing up in front of a room arguing that 2+2=5? Because that's what you are doing right now. Anyone can point to a few articles on fuel cells and air cars to argue that peak oil will not be a problem. But see my previous post. You've not been looking at the issue from a systemic, end-to-end perspective.
When the true peak will occur is in question (in terms of years or decades at the most). What the implications are is also in question. But what is not in question is that there are not any energy sources equivalent to easily extracted oil. Talking about hydrogen cars and air cars is irrelevant. Talk about the energy consumption of America and/or the world, look at efficiencies in transportation and other areas, factor in improvements in technologies (e.g. solar), and try to figure out where we will get the energy from to power our society.
Although I do post thoughts from both sides of the argument to elicit examination on occasion.
Platinum is used for fuel cells because of it's molecular structure. Other materials can be used to replace it, but are far less efficient than platinum. It's because we don't have micron level manufacturing control that platinum is attractive. Once we can master this level of synthesis over construction materials, we can indeed replace platinum... just not yet.
You don't need to be an engineer to understand the difference between oil and gas as energy sources and everything else.
Of course as oil becomes more expensive we will explore alternatives like hydrogen fuel cells, solar, wind etc... (Although not "air" cars... the very idea is a scam)
Peak Oil is really about the loss of cheap energy... not the loss of energy.
So unless you are prepared to argue that a particular alternative energy source is at least as cheap as oil, then the fact stands that as oil declines, our energy will be more expensive.
That wasn't so hard now was it? _________________ "When you understand why you dismiss all the other possible gods, you will understand why I dismiss yours." - Stephen F Roberts.
So you see, these naysayers and doom and gloomists are simply wrong. Hydrogen based Fuel Cells ARE the future for automobiles. And so are Air-Cars.
Would you feel embarrassed standing up in front of a room arguing that 2+2=5? Because that's what you are doing right now. Anyone can point to a few articles on fuel cells and air cars to argue that peak oil will not be a problem. But see my previous post. You've not been looking at the issue from a systemic, end-to-end perspective.
When the true peak will occur is in question (in terms of years or decades at the most). What the implications are is also in question. But what is not in question is that there are not any energy sources equivalent to easily extracted oil. Talking about hydrogen cars and air cars is irrelevant. Talk about the energy consumption of America and/or the world, look at efficiencies in transportation and other areas, factor in improvements in technologies (e.g. solar), and try to figure out where we will get the energy from to power our society.
You've not done that.
68% of the energy needs of USA is produced by fossil fuels.
Probably more than HALF of that 68% is wasted on cars, and trucks, and trains driven by the average joes. Gasoline becomes so expensive due to Peak Oil the laws of supply and demand eliminate fossil fueled automobiles and create a huge demand for fuel cell automobiles. Enter honda, and Daimler Chrysler. THey've managed to commercialize these automobiles and the market forces reduce prices to 15K for an economy model.
So now, that 68% of fossil fuel is reduced to 30%.
The remaining 70% is now composed of fuel cells, nuclear, hyrdo, and other.
Say we increase solar and wind power by building more solar and wind generators from 5% to 15%.
Another 10% reduction in our fossil fuel.
So now, fossil fuel is 20%, 80% is non-fossil fuel.
Say we increase renewable oil production using Thermal Depolymerisation Process so that we can reduce our fossil fuel from 20% to 10%.
Combined that with other process to produce oil naturally, we can eliminate that to ZERO!
Do you really think we will sit around waiting for the end of the world when Peak Oil arrives when we have all these alternatives??
I think not. You pessimists seem to think the sky is falling, the sky is falling. But you ignore all the signs that we're on our way to weaning away from fossil fuel dependence to hydrogen.
You cannot post new topics in this forum You cannot reply to topics in this forum You cannot edit your posts in this forum You cannot delete your posts in this forum You cannot vote in polls in this forum
News
Discussions
Resources
Members
Forum FAQ
Search
Usergroups
Profile
Log in to check your private messages
Log in
